people. a lot of them don't know people within creative industries that could help them so i think that is my job as someone that comes from the outside that comes back with different gifts is to use that to create britches i met amy or the mip deal through the metal cultural honors program. >> she just wants what this court are made of our native fashion. and that allows me to freedom kinda step outside the box there's so many makers that haven't had space. >> and other places to sell that we open our house to that opportunity for them to get it start. it's a really beautiful compilation of all different tribes coming together in the shop fun part of my job is to revolutionize the performance space for indigenous peoples please never take this. >> i love this. >> it's a new way to re-invest

in our young people because instead of creating events that make money for the event organizer is to create events that distribute to the performers that creatives that are part of that show and then i've been in the fashion industry for a long time and to actually be in this place to honor my indigeneity and to practice reciprocity for everything that we take, we find a way to give back so we are a sustainable brand that simply found ways to be of service through everything i do, through my creative world be sure to tune in saturday at 9:00 p.m. eastern for the champions for change, one hour special hey, thank you all so much for watching our coverage continues with anderson cooper 360 good evening.

>> on what was a blockbuster de and the criminal hush money trial. the former president block poster because after what has at times been a meandering cross-examination and the prosecution's most important witness, michael cohen today, trump attorney todd blanche was able to repeatedly raised questions about cohen's honesty, not just in the past, but his honesty in his testimony before this jury this week i was in the courtroom this morning just before the lunch break. blanche presented text messages to cohen between him and former trump bodyguard keith schiller. the messages were from october 24, 2016 and they appear to contradict testimony. cohen gave monday on direct examination that goes to the heart of the alleged scheme to falsify business records earlier in the week, cohen testified about texting schiller. he said under oath that he needed to talk to trump are urgently and schiller was always by his side. he testified that he you schiller's phone to speak to the former president cohen told the jury in his earlier testimony that the purpose of

the call was, quote, to discuss the stormy daniels matter and the resolution of it but today, todd blanche did something that prosecutors had apparently not done, or at least not discussed with michael cohen owning their questioning of him on the witness stand. blanche read previous text messages cohen had received shortly before he texted schiller, and they showed that cohen was responding to a 14-year-old crank color who had been pranking him by phone for days. cohen texted schiller informing him about the prank calls and wanting help from schiller about the calls and that at appears is why he then called schiller blanche appeared to have trapped cohen arguing that the subsequent call between him and schiller last only 96 seconds. in question whether in this quote comes to us from our reporters in the room, you had enough time to update schiller about all the problems you were having and also update president trump about the status of the stormy daniels situation it's important to remember that cohen had never mentioned this 14-year-old crank color and testimony, blanche directly stated that he lied under oath earlier this week about speaking within candidate trump on that day, it

was a major moment on a day that's all several other notable developments, including sources tell cnn the defense it's may call a former attorney for cohen, robert costello, to continue the defense argument that the onetime fixer for the former president is a liar, who have the judge also suggested summations could begin next week, there's a lot to talk to with our panel joining us as robert ray of former president's council during his first impeachment trial. former federal prosecutors jeffrey tubingen, cnn anchor abby phillip, also, three more who witnessed that pivotal moment in a courtroom today was cnn's anchor kaitlan collins went after the lunch break. norm eisen, who is the council that was democrats during that first impeachment, was there this morning and correspondent kara scannell kara, what was that moment? the one that stood out to you owe by far? absolutely. i mean, it was the big moment of the day and the way that todd blanche did it spent a lot of the morning on these inconsistent statements drawing out when michael cohen may have lied and then he gets to this phone call and he begins by saying, you spoke with the

former you testified de on monday, you spoke with trump on the 24th cohen says yes and he says, do you remember was on speaker phone or did schiller hand the phone comes like, oh, i don't remember. so he's he's setting it up in such a way that you think you're going back to this. and then he says what about these text messages? and then goes exactly as you just described, just confronting cohen with these text messages in the timestamps that were so close and that showed keith schiller saying to him cohen's complaining about this 14 real calling him. shiller says at 8:02, call me coming calls him at 8:02. it's a 96 second phone call and cohen then says, well, you know, blanche is just building this crescendo. he is focusing in on this on cohen and he's like admitted you lied and you made up this call and cohen says i'm not sure that's accurate later on, he tried to correct that a bit and said that the reason why he remembered this specificly was because this was as he put it,

so important such a critical thing. and so he had it in his memory has been telling the story for six years. i'm not sure that that did the job though. >> norm. i mean, did you believe michael cohen in what his response to this was because his response and basically evolved into well, i was doing both when he was cornered, he could have basically either said you know what, i misremembered this, which would have been devastating or what he did which was i did both. i both talked to keith schiller about this 14 year-old boy who i want to get vengeance against, which was bizarre enough and i had time to tell president trump is crucial piece of information, which is i'm going ahead with stormy deal and trump agreed and there was a ferocious debate in the courtroom between the people who thought it was a true perry mason moment. >> and some in my row who said really, yes, george, our friend george conway he said, what is

everybody getting so exercise i think the same demand is around, brought looted, sitting just just in front of anderson. i i. wanted to grab you and be like, oh, my god, norm, are you hearing we had a quick conversation about it. it was a good moment of cross. it was a very professional and powerful moment of cross i think if cohen had been shown those texts by the prosecution on the direct examination, if they had refresh his recollection, there's nothing implausible about, but that's what you write know, i think both subject it seems like a huge muscle thank by prosecutors was not the best. it was not there. they nine and no. did they not look at what the texas there it was not their finest home and i my experience has been it wasn't it was a blow on the

chin, but my experience, 30 years of doing this is that it takes more than one punch to knock out a witness. this is a witness that the jury had believed but watching the jury at the time, i did not think it was a knockout blow. here's the thing if i'm a juror and again, it's possible to reduce jurors. >> but if i'm a juror and i've heard and i've been warned that michael cohen lies the prosecutors have said this. they've set it up. i've prepared for that. i'm prepared for he's lied in the past repeatedly. i don't know if a juror is prepared for he lied to this jury two days ago, but now he's really telling the truth. i mean, i don't know. does that does a juror make a difference between oh, yeah. those he is old lives, but he's really now telling the truth. >> jurors understand neat, clean this up in the he was stronger after lunch. memory is not perfect. okay. people do not have perfect recollection,

but you're gonna get read witnesses, accept for an inveterate liar. >> so let me just show you what's really hard oranges started. >> you want to think is out before it's going to leave my mind, which is if this phone call if his testimony previously was it was so urgent that i talked to trump because i got to check in with the boss on everything i do and i'm going forward at the stormy daniels payment and he's got to approve it. so i'm calling him now. it's going to be a quick phone call. i called keith schiller because i want to talk to the boss. if that was so urgent and in his mind why is he obsessing about a 14 year-old boy who was allegedly prank calling him, and contacting keith schiller saying, i got to talk up to you about this weird phone number that shows up. it's not i got to talk to the boss or something really urgent. and calling keith schiller and talking the boss. and then after that conversation is over she'll say new chiller. oh, by

the way, there's his phone number is not it seems like the 14 year-old boy is the reason he's calling what they're asking. >> i mean, you just basically made the defense's case for that. memories are not perfect. that is exactly what they're saying to michael cohen that your memory is not perfect and you don't remember we're exactly that you even spoke to donald trump on this phone goal. i mean, his most devastating line after the texts the 14 year-old was i believe i spoke with mr. trump. he didn't even double down on it after he was pressed on it. and so that is exactly their entire case here that they've been saying michael cohen, how can you not remember this? but then you remember this phone call with donald trump the best? >> florida cross-examination was todd blanche has follow-up, which was the jury is not interested in what you believe she got objective, doesn't matter those that's the kind of comment that you make. >> you don't care whether that objection sustained, you're communicating to the journey said that, right? >> looking at the jurors absolutely absolutely. >> right? i as caitlin, sad luck. i think the issue with michael cohen is that particularly when you have

animus toward another person which they have demonstrated pretty clearly it is also plausible for the jury to believe that your memory is colored by your desire to see donald trump behind bars. and that's why this moment i think is so devastating because he is so crystal clear on everything that is bad for donald trump's case. but on everything from the mundane to other things that apparently at the time he was really worked up about. he cannot remember it. and that is both the problem from the cases perspective, but i just think in general from michael cohen, this is the issue with him, is that you cannot always be sure yes, he's been telling the story for six years, but in those six years, he's been trying to get donald trump convicted of crimes is also fascinating. the guardian today, because i had not, i must admit i have not listed come to michael cohen's podcasts. may of culpa but it was shocking, but it was play a moment of it was playing in the courtroom today, and it was so fascinating because, you know,

michael cohen's testimony has been very even keeled and demean very rational, very yes, ma'am. no, sir. all this and suddenly they played this thing and there's a guy's screaming in the room like using know, it just know my nose regular hi somebody who does a podcast. i was like, is this his actual normal speaking voice to podcasts? because it's literally yelling and it's clearly written down because he's speaking in a way that's not so he's written down these yells, like it's gotta be all in caps. i mean, it was shocking. i was like twain between that just the volume of him and compared with his very close demeanor that was i was like, whoa, i mean, it fills the courtroom. i don't know if somebody who turned up the volume. it's loud. i was like did they is this intentionally too loud? i'm told we have a clip of the pockets. let's play it and play it loud. it was quite loud in them the courtroom. am i gotta tell you

that's your volume i truly hope that this man ends up in prison. >> it will bring back the year that i lost or the damage done to my family but revenge is a dish best served cold. and you better believe i want this man to go down and rot and for what he did to me and my family so that's what was played played in court a little biased. >> i don't know but there is i think a fundamental question about michael cohen as a witness, which is is the jury going to listen to him? >> and the cross and the history of lying and say, the hell with this guy. i mean, just write him off or are they going to say, look, he's had this traumatic experience. he went to prison because he thought he was helping donald trump. let's parse each statement and see whether those statements are corroborated. and this is really i think the prosecution's great hope, and this is why they examined him the way they did on direct, which was scaffolding his

testimony with test messages phone records. now the big problem of width today is those text messages came back to bite him, at least in this one exchange, but it is also worth mentioning that he had years of contact with donald trump. it's not in debate that whether he could whether he was in touch with him if he's mistaken about this one phone call, one prosecution responses. so why not? he was in touch for ten years, but it's not just this one phone call, one. you also to remember there are two attorneys on this jury who are listening to michael cohen admit that he agrees it's unethical for an attorney to record their client. they're listening to that. todd blanche is trying to catch him. in other inconsistencies. he seems like he's about to catch him in and out on monday. this is something i'm watching because he asked him about recording conversations with reporters, which michael cohen said he did pretty often, but he said he stopped after the 2016 campaign and then todd blanche pressed him on that. he said, i would have to check and todd blanche

responded with this knowing tone. will we'll check together in a minute? so it seems like he's just kept catching. maybe it doesn't change the actual documents, but it could really undermine the credibility. >> kaitlan, this is a controversial view, but attorneys are also human beings and they understand that sometimes people do stupid things. >> sometimes people say when things, when they're angry and they, they hold grudges that doesn't mean every word they say is a lie and that's the challenge for the prosecutors to say, look, we know he lied and they brought out a lot of that on direct. unfortunately, for them, not everything. i mean, they certainly should have brought out this whole thing about the 14-year-old, but this wasn't a total surprise. to the jury. i suspect obviously, i don't that's why this case from day one, starting with david pecker and the aug august 2015 meeting in trump tower where you have pecker agreeing that there is going to be this activity, this

catch and kill activity to benefit the campaign going all throughout the testimony with those corroborating notes in allen weisselberg's hand. there. this is one tile in a mosaic. and even today, cohen was much stronger in the afternoon and the jury does not necessarily fixate on that one moment is also three because all during the i mean, for until the exciting in bright before the lunch break, i kept sitting there wondering, well, all todd blanche is talking about is just laws by michael cohen about things in general, not anything to do with a document that was signed about stormy daniels or anything to do with stormy downs or anything to do with hush money payments and to me it felt very meandering and you know, was like, okay, yeah, we know the guy has lied a lot and that's except for one thing and that's another blockbuster area of this testimony, which i

think is extraordinary, doesn't seem to be something many people have picked up on and that is the following. >> it is an extraordinary thing in my experience for a cooperating witness to take the stand and admit under oath at our trial that they pleaded guilty to something that they didn't commit in other words, per during themselves at the time of the plea allocution. now, i know there's all kinds of stuff here about replaying the how many times can he be on truthful and how many times is the untruthful under oath? but i have to tell you. i mean, at least as i learned, being a prosecutor, if you have a cooperating witness that can't tell the truth at a plea allocution. that means that that witness is basically worthless he testified he lied to the judge wright in this prior case and his plea was voluntary. >> and then when he was when todd blanche asked him, well what do you think the judge would have thought of? you wouldn't don't you think the judge would like to have known you were lying? i mean, don't you think that would have impact? his decision and it

would have and michael cohen was like, i don't know how he said the judge was in on it. >> the assistant us attorneys i was in on it. >> i i'm pretty and the top lunches for cross-examination. so basically, whenever you get into a problem, it's always blame somebody else, blame president trump, blame the judge, blamed the justice department, blamed the us attorney's office from district of new york, blame congress. i mean, how many places do you have to go where this guy has lied? many times under oath and it's always somebody else's fault. that's not his fault. >> i mean, i'll get to tell you in summation that's pretty powerful evidence to a jury to say you shouldn't believe anything. >> this guy says. and if you have to rely on his testimony in any fashion whatsoever in order to convict donald while trump iee an order to fix donald trump's intent, you have a reasonable doubt. you can't have anything else. but a reasonable doubt and yet in that moment, when blanche tried to push him and said, so you're not accepting responsibility, said, i do accept responsibility. >> he stood up to max, but he

doesn't accept responsibility. norm for the most important thing which is he's saying that he didn't plead guilty to a crime and coincides 20 saying no he is say that he accepts responsibility. >> he was the meaning is so i don't seem to accept responsibility. but the phrase he uses, the phrase, i accept full responsibility constant and there can't be any daylight there because if there is daylight that is a huge problem for the prosecution to get a break and we're gonna have a lot more kara scannell. thank you so much as always, everyone else's i'm going to stay here silver com we just received the image, the defense used of that texts cohen sent to schiller about the crank color will show you that plus john berman is through today's transcripts from roger two, we there yet so many ways to say life ready while it happen. >> that's 3605 by whole foods

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raise join me and trying.com short time ago we received images of that text exchange between michael cohen and then kennedy trump's bodyguard, keith schiller, the defense attorney has showed today, again, it was approved. >> their assertion that cohen did not ask to speak to trump about stormy daniels as he tests fight earlier in the week, but he wanted to talk to the bodyguard actually to keith schiller about a crank call or a series of crank calls. this the key moment quoting cohen's taxed, who can i speak to regarding harassing calls to

myself in office, the dope forgot to block his call on one of them the call was these calls for allegedly by 14-year-old after that, keith schiller texts michael cohen, call me and surely after minute, seconds later, there's a call from michael cohen to keith schiller, which he had previously testified was called to get to trump to tell them important news that he was moving ahead on the payments to stormy daniels hello. any claim that trump had to agree, we're joined now by john berman, who has more on this moment, although the full text of this cross-examination that so that was so momentous is not out. we have almost all of today's transcript except this part. as you can imagine, which is very frustrated, but answering, you did a great job explaining it based on what you and others the report from inside the courtroom. >> look he todd blanche one after michael cohen on this. >> michael cohen basically said, i know that keith was with mr. trump at the time and there was more potentially than this. in other words, more potentially than me just

talking to keith about the kid. maybe i talked to him him about something else then he said, i always ran everything by the boss immediately. and in this case, it would have been saying everything has been taken care of, its been resolved in any ultimately had too many because based on what was going on, based on the text messages and so on, based on the other text messages about stormy daniels matter, that is how we came to that that he talked to trump about stormy daniel's on this phone call, it was all the other things. blanche challenged cohen to confirm that his trial testimony was based on materials prosecutors showed him in preparation for questioning. >> this was an important moment because then blanche saying, well, wait a minute so you're only testifying to this phone call because prosecutors showed you a call log that had this phone call and you're claiming that that basically jarred your memory. this is the setup of this crucial phone set up to the cross-examination well, hello, and he said, yes, that refreshed my recollection. well, we do it just didn't refresh his recollection of the

14-year-olds color. >> can i ask a question? what what is the ultimate significance of let's assume he just lied about all this but does this mean that donald trump didn't know that he was, he was reimbursing. know, but it's what is claiming this was one of the examples. this was a key moment when he directly told donald trump i'm going ahead with these payments and trump approved it and he trolled can do it. >> but but we we have abundant proof, including trump's own words in a tweet, in a, in a financial disclosure form from the white house where he says, i reimbursed michael cohen for so why is that you have additional communications the next day with cohen davidson, howard, and pecker, and then you have to direct calls on the 26th at 8:26 a.m. and 8:34 a.m.

and that was when he was wrong and that was when he was making the trend that's where actually the transcript of that call two days later where colvin is asked, did you call mr. trump before you went upset of set up the account to make the transfer. he goes, yes. what in substance that you discuss with them on these two calls cohen said in direct, i wanted to ensure once again, he approved of what i was doing because they're required approval from him on all of this should also point out earlier that morning, i guess before that, he texted the keith schiller back pursuing the family of the 14-year-old phone call or he would seems very obsessed on this milk was saying, please don't do this. i'm 14 years, literally when morning that moment happened and then they went to break, which is a great moment for the defense to end on, obviously, then they come back in the room and todd blanche greeted michael cohen when he was at the witness stand. >> his boys is voice was barely audible he he said good afternoon, mr. cohen and michael cohen responded mr. blanche, but you could barely hear it in the courtroom and obviously he's speaking into a microphone. >> and then the text did not

been redacted when you were still in the courtrooms? >> i don't believe they showed them on the screen. they redacted the what they needed to during the lunch break. so then they put them up on the screen and made michael cohen read what he was texting this 14-year-old that when the kids said he was 14, allegedly the michael cohen responded, well, you need to tell your parent or guardian that the secret service is now responsible for handling this, and it just kinda this, this movement where the jury doesn't often show a lot and they clearly were experiencing the same had the same look that you had when you came because he was are for obvious reasons let's not forget. this is from 2016 were in 2024. this is eight years ago. now refreshing somebody's recollection with a text message we'll do you really remember that this is what happened? >> i mean that's the whole point of the cross-examination. >> you basically testify here because the prosecution showed you what bunch of documents and stuff and you're telling us what you remember that if you hadn't been shown those

documents, you wouldn't be able to tie him anything. i wanted norms point that it wasn't just this one phone call. it was a whole series of phone calls right around this time at exactly the time he is he is transferring the money is that all made up two and no and the testimony that cohen put in in his direct about this call was very general testimony. >> he was not purporting to remember exactly what was said back and forth. i think i understand the mental excitement of that moment of confrontation, but i think in the larger scheme of things, this gigantic mosaic that corroborates michael cohen the lack of any other explanation for what trump was doing the later corroborating statement, the law aag series of witnesses, the many documents i don't believe the jury is going to seize on it if you add 1234 knockout punches, yes. you would allayed co and flat. this

was just one here. it comes out. it was my here's my thing about where about at this statement. >> and also just about michael cohen in general there's abundant evidence to donald trump news about the hush money payments, but that is not the issue here. the issue is the falsification of business records from my understanding of the evidence, there's really one key moment where michael cohen basically makes the case that donald trump understood that it was going to be fraudulently put on the books as legal fees, and that was a meeting that he had with allen weisselberg and donald trump. there are only three people who know what goes on there. one of them is the defendant, the other one is not going to testify, and the other one is michael cohen and so if i'm a lawyer, unless you believe michael cohen with regard to that, that evidence and the defense is going to make the argument and summation his testimony is worthless, and these are the examples and he's trying to gild the lily and he, he's testifying and

making it up unless you can believe beyond a reasonable doubt that that conversation happen and there's proof of that it happened the way that my the way he said all right. half because it's only that way which would prove donald trump's intent. there's no way that a jury should convict on that evidence unanimously, beyond a reasonable doubt. that's going to be and that is why the doubt that is put on the table by michael cohen's recollection of a conversation that he describes as being pivotal is look, i mean, the bar is so low for the defense to just say to convince one juror that there is not enough evidence. >> i'm not saying that the preponderance of evidence is the donald trump knew what was going on and that there is a common sense view that one could have that he understood that this was not going to be put on the books correctly. but in this court it takes much less than that to get a juror to say, i don't know if i can believe this guy about this one really critical conversation that has to do with how the records, how the payments were

structured so that the records could be falsified fight that's the main problem i think right now for the prosecution will have more transcripts later. john berman. thanks so much. coming up. jury may view a potential witness for the defense to tell as five before congress yesterday, disputing michael cohen's own sworn testimony in hush money trial. let's say why choose asleep numbers smart that can keep me warm when i'm cold. >> wait, no, i'm always hot. >> sleep number. does that can i make my side? it's i think my sayyed firmer squeeze number. >> does that can help with sleep better and better speak number does that 94% of smart sleepers report better sleep now say 50% of the speed number limited edition smart bad plus 0% interest with months shut down and sleep number.com they blocked the road. everyone comfortable yep. there's plenty of space i gave me got it.

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pain-free absorbing for close captioning brought to you by rule or law, iconic brands up to 70% off retail at roulette law.com, at rubella you'll never pay for sees the deals on top before there south without all that. >> today as we've been discussing michael cohen's credibility came under attack today is trump's defense attorney todd blanche grilled him over key text messages and a phone call on october 2016, while the prosecution would like to present, cohen is a reformed liar. >> their new questions or the race today about some of the tests good morning. he gave in this trial earlier this week. there's also includes cohen's testimony on tuesday when he claimed that he was given advice by attorney robert costello in 2018, and that costello was using his connections to rudy giuliani. and by extension, foreign president trump to pressure cohen not to flip on wednesday, castello appeared before the house subcommittee on the so-called weaponization of the federal government to dispute

that the story he told yesterday was that rudy giuliani and i wish somehow conspiring to try and keep him quiet to try and keep them from flipping. >> that's the term we use in the trade for cooperating that's ridiculous. i asked for a meeting with a district attorney, bragg because i wanted to go in there, let him look me in the eye and let me explain all of the stuff that we had on michael cohen that showed that he's an inveterate liar. >> let's amazing. >> this is guy. he was representing him and he's calling his client and inveterate liar. >> don't once he actually technically representing him pretty that's what i that's certainly what i thought because fellow emails or the a, by the way the defense may make call him now. yes. although is it weird? i mean, it's weird that they had this testimony to get this testimony. >> apparently, the privilege was waived. i don't know exactly how that happened. that's what i would be pretty

unusual to call a witness. two, impeach a another witness on cross-examination. will see if the judge allows it, but castello, if he comes his emails to cohen are the most extraordinary. it's like a cookbook for witness tampering let's exactly like this. so proud, by the way, i forgot to introduce for not as good very and trials are about germany yeah hello, run, i apologize for not what to you. >> what did you think of today? look, i mean, he got up, michael cohen got absolutely hammered today, but he's a liar, is not a theory of defense. >> we still don't know what, what is the theory of defense they opened as i've said that, these. were legitimate legal fees. there's been no evidence of that. michael cohen is sticking to the story that i did no legal work them so

hemorrhage, michael cohen and saying he's a liar, dopa i think the jury thinks he is a liar. >> maybe they have questions about some of these phone calls, but there's other corroborating evidence and i still don't understand what the theory is, and we all know you have to have a theory of defense if you want to win a criminal case that was jeffrey, your argument all along which is okay. the prosecution has put forth a set of facts, believed them are not what is the defense argument exactly? >> there are certain undisputed facts in this case. the two most important of which are michael cohen paid stormy daniels $130,000. no one is going to dispute that. >> the other undisputed fact is that donald trump paid michael cohen $420,000. is there any explanation in front of the jury other than this was a reimbursement for what? >> for what he paid out. now, that means that the documents are false. that means that the corporate documents are false

the issue in the case is did donald trump no. or cause those documents to be false that to me is the only disputed issue in this case because the rest of it is just proved. and deborah, you do the other one of that that was raised today. it'll be fascinating to see how the prosecution handles this. is todd blanche grilled michael cohen on what he testified recently was that in 2017, 2018, he was barely doing any legal work for the trump family, but he he never had a retainer well, todd blanche went back and said, ever since you worked at the trump organization when he left his law firm in the day he met trump and went to try to get a job there. he never had a retainer. michael cohen said that was correct. and top let's just trying to make the point where you've never had a retainer, so it's not unusual that you didn't have one in 2017? 2018, but then the question that i had sitting there in the courtroom was when michael cohen sent those invoices to allen weisselberg. they were paid pursuant to a legal retainer. it's said it on every check we looked at all 11 of them. and so the question i would have for the defense

there is okay. well, then why was he being paid pursuant to a retainer if he's never had there, was no retainer. it's a lie was susan injured that wasn't the issue. the issue is whether there's a written retainer agreement, not whether or not there's has been retained. >> no. he said he's never had a retainer period i was there, todd blanche drill down? yes. >> but what he means by that is there was no written retainer agreement, but here's he didn't let wasn't by trump aware painter, it should that's kind of a sideshow. it's not like that big a deal really. in the legal field, whether or not you have returner gag, you should have but what legal i think the defense painted themselves into a corner. what did he do and what did donald trump think that he was writing those $35,000 checks for what did he think he was paying for? and we don't have any answer to that do you think it was effective for todd blanche to push the cross-examination? >> and all the way to the end of the day so that tomorrow there's no cord and norm, you

brought this up in the elevator during the lunch break, you were like, he's going to he should push in all the ways that they spend three days ruminating on the lives of michael cohen look, you can look at it both ways. in some ways, i think i would have gotten him off the stand and ended with him and just been done then you get some distance and then if you're going to put on a defense case, maybe they're going to call an expert. they say, i don't know some election expert then you start fresh on monday because the prosecution would have had to get get up today and do their redirect. it's a little tougher to do it when you don't have three days to prepare because short the defense is reviewing the transcript, but guess who else the prosecution and they're going to figure out all the things they need to fix on monday. so what would have been maybe a 45 redirect might be an hour-and-a-half redirect on monday now that you gave them those three? >> yeah, maybe but i don't if the prosecution had done redirect today, they wouldn't have finished. >> can i still have gone over next kaitlan is very

interesting retainer point. >> this is one of the most obscure areas of law. the reason which makes your eyes the figure out elevator i don't with yellow early your eyes detainer letters the reason he didn't need a retainer was because he was employed by the trump organization. >> he was in-house. in-house lawyers don't need a retainer letter when you leave your new york rules you are supposed to have a written retainer. so it is proof that he was not actually doing legal work, that he didn't have a written retainer letter. i'm that's why hoffinger close that was one of her last points in the closing, you're saying that when he was working for trump at the time didn't need one. >> he didn't because he didn't have was yeah, he was in-house at trump or at trump work. >> so that was one of the many todd blanche lines of

questioning that fell flat today, there were times when the jury was bored. >> there was a lot of questioning too about what michael cohen wanted after the election. >> we know what position he wanted in the white house. there was a lot of testimony about that, which i thought i didn't see it going in one area did you get was interminable and it led no place. >> michael michael cohen kept saying i wanted to be personal attorney to donald j. trump, which align he repeated did i like i like your impression i lost interest in halfway and they were claiming know you want to be special counsel and that was afraid his daughter had used. >> i mean, it just seemed i think it would also be a mistake for the defense to try to weirdly convinced the jury that this wasn't about the election. i mean, that is also one of the things that i think is kind of settled like we know i mean, i look pig say they're going to call this election expert. i think the judge is going to allow them to call. i think it's bradley smith in

his order. he said that they can call him to say, this is how the federal election commission works. these are some of the definitions, but there's one definition that i think you need to watch shout for. and what is a personal expense versus a business expense? and the election law says, and its 50 to usc three and it says it's a personal expense. if you would have made it irrespective of your campaign. and the argument that they've been trying to weave in the defense is that he would have made this payment to stormy daniels to protect his family, to protect millennia. so i think they're going to try and argue he would have made this payment irrespective of the campaign. therefore, it is not a campaign finance violation. and that's by the way, the federal election commission would have agreed know whether there'll be able to get that in sounds on but if you had gone to the federal election commission and truthfully disclose, we want to make this payment to stormy daniels we we want her to go away. we think that it may have some effects on the outcome of

the election. will you approve this as a campaign expenditure, the fec would've looked at them like, what are you out of your mind? find so it can't both be what with the prosecutors. it can't both be. wait a second. this is a concealed campaign expenditure if, if the people who make those fine judgments are like wait to note, of course it's a personal expense i mean, you know, the john edwards cases essentially a proof of that the john edwards case and it creates an interesting legal issue. >> and i think that's one reason why you strategize to have those two lawyers on there because they're gonna be like getting this. >> do you think that anything today's proceedings change? what do you think that the jury is thinking about this case and also todd blanche got barry. he did on this. i mean, he called him a liar. he grabbed the microphone like closely like someone like drunk at a party might grab a mic and his voice was loud in the room. he one point said to the jurors, like they don't want to hear whatever du is that effective. i mean, it was it was attention

michael cohen, it's, you know, you've gotta you gotta pay if you're witnesses, you can't you can't just be able in a china shop with everybody. but i think with michael cohen, i think it was totally fine. i was a wedding singer moment it was written out of has to be all. >> thank you so much really fascinating. natalie, did trump's lawyer, todd blanche raised his voice as i just set a times. he also raised his hand was some dramatic flair to put a visual on the point. my next guest captured some of that, those intense moments we'll talk to one of the great courtroom artists ahead. >> deliveries happen ordered that this happens now that happens, we get out of there are at least two back at the pitch. let's go be there with ring. there are more and rnc.com when to leave works all day. so i can keep working on i just want to leave 12 hours of uninterrupted pain relief who do you take the floor and for

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courtroom, this was an exciting de with the cross-examination toward the end of it, you capture this moment of todd blanche raising his hand that was in his cross-examination of michael cohen, and he was repeatedly saying, you've sworn in a courtroom, you've raised your right hand when you, saw that, had you already started the sketch or did you suddenly have to shift and start a whole new sketch of todd blanche raising his arms, didn't know this was going to be the moment. >> i did not know it'd be the moment and i did start another one with him leaning over the podium like this. he does a lot. then he raised his hand. i had to switch that so so can you just erase an organ and so many times he raised this you sworn to tell the truth then what did it mean? and in fact i'm certain point the judge seemed to sort of be like, okay, we got let me let's move it along but did you have to like erase the arm or just start a whole new scan know, i braced the arm i mean, it doesn't always work, but that's what i did this time

because i had so much else already in there. i felt, oh, i think i can just put that arm up. it's there now. pull it up. you've heard a lot of crime cross-examinations. did you think did this one register to you in any particular way no, i don't you didn't think it was as excited like i haven't seen many, so i thought the end was incredibly ross is off exciting and it should be lawyers get really excited when they're going to cross somebody. i think that's why they call it the crucible of cross-examinati on. >> blanche is not really well-practiced in a cross-examination. >> i mean, he i think he would even acknowledge that. and so today was really a big test for him and for him to kinda have this disbelieving tone in his voice is michael cohen was answering these questions, raising his hands, raising his voice kinda this high pitched voice at times to say, no one can believe what you're saying almost like ticket times, like are you kidding me? >> yeah. i'd say are you finished now, please don't give a speech i understand your characterization, but we just

read it nothing on that letter is not the truth. >> and i'll just say one moment that i noticed today was after a break, they were walking back in the room. normally trump's strides in by himself. he's at the front of the room. you can comes in alone and then everyone trails and bind him. he and todd blanche, we're walking side-by-side, kinda talking to one another. you never really see trump like that with his attorney walking into the room? >> no. you're right. he's always behind him. >> todd blanche, i will say that in some of those more shrill todd blanche moments, including the two at the end where he confronted cohen and there was an objection and the objection was sustained. those were moments that the jury paid. i thought hard to discern attention. they were very attentive. you couldn't read them. they were visibly annoyed with blanche. i saw eye rolling a really looking away, it was too much and it detracted. it shows his lack of experience because it actually detracted from the point he was making.

he would have been better to let the revelation that he had at elicited from cohen breathe rather than being objected to and so so loud and unpleasant as an added, it looked to me like the jury was not liking todd blanche very much in those moments. >> well editorializing while you're cross-examining a witness is usually a bad idea. i mean, that's not what you're there to do. >> your bad from a legal standpoint or just from a product jury impact jury impact standpoint. the jury is not interested in your editorializing. they wanted to try to get to the facts just like every jury wants to get to the facts, but that moment with the hand raised or whatever i'm sure that you dated, your work and probably noted the time to write someday. that'll probably appeal here on todd blanche's office wall from short for phi there you go i

love critiquing lawyers as much as the next person, but every time i've talked to jurors almost always what you hear from them is oh, the lawyers were fine, but the evidence was x and they, you know, they don't parse that performance of the attorneys as much as we do. >> and i think this is one of the great things about the jury system is that i think the evidence actually matters a lot more than and the performance of the lawyer for the person who does parse the lawyers is definitely trump. >> yeah. and i mean, if our friend arthur adalja was here, he would say trump at his other attorney, susan necheles, has way more experience in doing across then todd blanche, but once that moment happened, i was like, okay, that's why todd blanche is doing this cross-examination. >> he trump is a very you know, he likes to archetype people and just sort of put them in their categories.

>> i can imagine this is speculation, but i can only imagine him thinking wanting to have somebody with the physicality of todd blanche, who is actually a very kind of broad shouldered type of person to be able to do that kind of aggressive in your face, challenging of michael cohen that susan necheles is a incredible professional, but she's that's not how she conducts herself in her doing her job. and stylistically, it's a choice whether it will matter to the jury. i don't know, but it probably matters. >> i think that's hi theater moment and although jeffries correct to point out that it's still ultimately about facts but high theater moments, people are human. >> facts are not everything people, when it comes to jury deliberations, in my experience, those are emotional moments in addition to fact gathering moments and theater trials are theater after all, the theater matters matters lawyers, without theater and you can go to sleep that's not

a problem with his kano jan. >> thank you so much. >> always we return with michael cohen's former or attorney and current legal advisor lending davis has taken whether his client dug a hole for himself or did well for himself. >> and also, it's taken on the prosecution today, going into the final stages of this trial will be right back et for sure investments. we may look like other money managers, but were different. >> you can't be that different. >> we are we have a team of specialists, not only in investing, but also in financial and estate planning and more your clients rely on you for all that? yes. and as a fiduciary, we always put their interests first, but you still so commission-based products, right? >> no, we have a simple management fees structured, so we do better when our clients do better we're more different than i thought at fisher investments were clearly different. >> when your gut is that a balance, your body gives you signs. so if you're frustrated

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