this has to exist, but on the other hand, you're glad that it does, does it the physical embodiment of harm reduction, something that we've talked about a lot. i will tell you, anderson, just over the past few years you've, seen drug usage actually go down in the united states. but at the same time, the drugs have gotten stronger. they've gotten deadlier, and they are easier to obtain. i mean, keith was telling me these kids, they'll get the drugs off social media and they'll pay with venmo, which is a guess. no surprise, then that the number of overdoses in adolescence has doubled over the last several years. so it's an incredible program, but said that it has to exist at all. >> petro sanjay gupta, thanks so much i got it. >> thank you. >> sure. to join sanjay this saturday, may 18 at 9:00 p.m. eastern for the hour-long special champions for change with a look at 12 people making a difference. again, that's saturday at 9:00 p.m. eastern the news continues. the source for kaitlan collins starts now

straight from the source tonight, a surprise agreement to everybody between trump and biden agreeing to debate twice before election day. first, right here on cnn, next month donald trump personally confirming to me that he's in meanwhile, another epic showdown. just hours away from happening, not weeks away, because michael cohen, we'll be back on the witness stand. trump's trial tomorrow. >> we're getting new reporting tonight on the plan of attack by the trump team. we have two inside sources, michael cohen's former attorney, lanny davis. >> and what have donald trump's attorneys, both here tonight and a big question where is rudy giuliani? because that's what law enforcement in arizona is asking is they've been trying to find the onetime trump attorney for weeks. why they need to see him? in person, as cnn has learning where he might be. i'm kaitlan collins, and this is the source

mark your, calendars because six weeks from tomorrow, thursday, june 27, its biden trump in a debate, rematch right here on cnn and it promises to be epic, or at least dramatic. hopefully there's less shouting this time for all of us watching in the room and at home. the only president in us history who has tried to stop the peaceful transfer of power versus the man who defeated him. the current president who says that his rival is a dire threat to democracy, is facing challenging pulled numbers and critical battleground states is well. this trump-biden faceoff will be their first since 2020 also their first time in the same rooms since then, which is remarkable in and of itself trump. confirmed to me directly this morning that he had accepted cnn's invitation, which came after this direct challenge from president biden and trump lost two debates to me in 20 $0.20 said he hadn't shown up for debate. >> now he's acting like he

wants to debate me again. well, make my day pal i'll even do it twice. so let's pick the dates, donald, i hear you're free on wednesdays that last remark, if it stood out to you, it also stood out to me. >> it's notable because you don't often hear president biden weighing in on donald trump's legal cases. he almost never does. that reference there to today, wednesday. that's because it's a rare de not in court for donald trump right now. these debates, the first are going to happen here on cnn in june. and then again in september. >> these are the earliest general election debates in modern history. >> the first is happening before either candidate has formally accepted their party's nomination at their conventions. here's what donald trump had to say about this agreement well absolute lab and tried to get his issuing it. >> i wonder whether or not he shows up because he also challenged me to golf. so i'm a very good golfer. he can't hit a ball 50 yards. i really think he has to debate. he mice will get it over with probably

should do it early so that he can he's not going to get any better well, i mean, time will tell and we'll find out the answer to that question just six weeks from today. >> my source tonight is someone who is directly channeled tunnel trump on the debate stage, felipe raina's played him for hillary clinton's 2016 debate prep and by doing so, subjected himself to watching all 11 of the republican 2016 primary debates that trump participated in three times at that and some felipe, it's great to have you here mean, i remember you even war the long red tie in the dark suit for your prep, your some, some video of you and hillary clinton greeting each other on stage. i mean, how does one prepare to debate donald trump well, i mean, my preparation started with just sort attorney get into character. >> i mean, i'm not as tall as he is, but at that time i did have a little bit more wait than i do. now, i went to my

taylor and i said, look, i need a suit like donald trump and not because of halloween. i mean, i literally need a suit like donald trump and he said, i get it. i'm going to make the sleeves too long and it's gonna be too baggy. >> i bought lifts for my shoes. >> i went online. i think the ebay and i got trump cufflinks i did it up. that was to help me, i guess i'm the equivalent of a method actor or if i were should be in hollywood but it's also turned method actor. yeah, i mean, i knew i did it right because the first time we did a debate prep session, hillary walked in and she saw me and said of phillipa is ready to be obnoxious like she she just at that moment, i mean, not that she's happy to see me anytime, but she knew i had done my bit. i had even without the orange hair, i was i was ready to do my thing, but i mean it's i'm talking about channeling him. i mean, it's kind of ironic. listening to him talk to hugh hewitt, that

voice i just heard that guys now ready to debate. that was low energy donald. that guy's not making any sense. he's talking about golf that joe biden that we watched that video. i love that joe biden, i think democrats love that joe biden that's the joe biden that comes to play. and look, donald trump has debated five times in the general election in the last, whatever, seven years, he's lost all five. and boys trump doing biden a huge favor as long along with his campaign, the whole republican party, they keep saying that joe biden going to show up and fall over, that he can't stay the wake, they can't do this. there and then the bar who said he lost all five, obviously that's subjective. >> some republicans, i'm sure in trump's allies, would, it would argue otherwise. but i think the question is, is, you know, you prepped hillary clinton for the debates in 2016. now that you saw him in 2016, but also at those two debates with biden himself you get a case study of what they're actually like. i mean, what would you advise president biden after seeing those two

debates? >> well it's tough because they were very, they were two very different donald trump's in the sense that in 2016, i always have a hard time having this come out of my mouth, but there was a message in donald trump, there's a lot of bluster there was a lot of line those all the things that we see now. but at the core, there was talking about health care. there's talking about jobs leaving america. there was talking about immigration. there was a balance, 2020. he was just an angry guy. he was grievances. it was out of whack. it's already talked about in 2024, who shows up is 2016 is a 2020, is it a hybrid? and i'm not so sure because on certain days, if you listen to donald trump's sitting outside of the courtroom, it's purely aggrieved. donald trump. >> it's exactly what you're hearing him saying crap about excuse me, about his golf game or about stormy daniel's or whatever on the trail sometimes he's talking about bringing back master lock that has moved

south frack to the country. i think that the lesson for joe biden and look, he's got the best people around him. he's got ron klain, who is the master of this running his debate prep he's gotta be able to who be able to see or be ready for different looks for different donald trump's to show up. now, luckily, the guys the most predictable creature on god's green earth. so it's just a matter of being ready for this whole swath of it. you just can't you can't just say 2020 is the last trump we saw and it'll be the trump we see. yeah. >> i mean, our river preparing for the town hall. you can really watch a lot of his interviews, town halls, debates, and know kind of where he is going to go. i think that's a lot of politicians, but i mean, but the biden campaign called you, would you would you play donald trump again? >> they will need to, but you know what i was talking to friends about this today? hey, it's not being able to play donald trump, which i think i did pretty well. the reason i was good at it was because i

knew hillary clinton. it was the combination of the two. if it was just knowing donald trump, alec baldwin would be the absolute best person to do these things. because it's you have to be able to bend it without breaking it for pink panther fans, i always thought you're not cato the guy. his house person that would jump out of the closet just attack them at any given moment when he wasn't looking, it's more like a baseball catcher that is knows the hitter knows what pitch you wants to come from his picture, but also can look at his pictures. it can feel what heat, how much he has, and it's that balance. and look, i don't i don't know joe biden know there are people like bob bauer who did it for him in 2020 and look a subjective are not joe biden did really, really well in 2020 or conversely, donald trump did really, really poorly in 2020. well, we'll find out how they do in 2024 and just about six weeks fully, bryan is great to have you here next time where that also here today, we have some of our best political

minds to talk about this remarkable moment get cnn political commentator and author of the moment bacardi sellers. cnn senior political commentator who served as a special assistant president george w bush, scott jennings, and also former trump white house communications director anthony scaramucci. i think bacardi, let me just start with you because this all happened really quickly this morning. i'm an even inside the building here at cia did it was coded this energy of this is actually happening when we weren't totally sure what happened. >> you know, i was surprised as well. i'm surprised it agreed to something these two individuals agreed to something. i'm surprised that they want to do it, and i think there's a certain glad there who still believes that donald trump will back out. i think there's going to be an issue about terms mike being cut off, et cetera. >> no audience. >> i mean, listen, i'll be there. the de it happens, but there are a whole lot of people to think that this may not actually happens. >> scott. >> i think it's going to happen. i think trump has long said he wants it to him. he was the first one that throughout the idea of doing debates. biden ignored it for weeks, 48 hours ago, we got a spate of terrible polls in the new york

times, two days later, while are joe biden serwer, hail mary's here, and we're not even at halftime of this football game. so i think trump has said he wants to do it. they were happy to. i thought he had a confident posture by saying, sure. you said the terms. i'll be there. >> i mean, it it's such a remarkable moment and to see what is coming after the white house was asked about that today. scaramucci, everyone wants to know what you think about this, especially given you worked in the trump white house. but first can i just remind everyone what it was like back in 2020 that first time that they were on the debate stage, hairs are just a refresher for those of you who don't know data. but here it is i'm the least racist person in this room. abraham lincoln here is one of the most racist prejudice we've had in modern history. >> we're. going to talk about all that. what the 2024 version of that's going to look like here from it, three scaramucci back in a moment belly.

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wipe fifth sketch are slipping if anyone needs a reminder about how insane the biden and trump face off on the presidential debate stage can truly be. >> i can confirm it was insane, not sexually. >> let me take you back to september 29, 2020. this was the first debate that took place between the two of them. it was hi by global pandemic you can see then president trump looked ill on stage. it turns out that we've learned more than a year later, one of two covid tests, he had taken three days before that moment on stage, had actually come back positive. something that trump and his team hid from the commission for presidential debates and from president biden's team trump's chief of staff at the time, mark meadows wrote in his own book, quote, nothing was going to stop trump from going out there. even apparently if it meant putting president biden's health and everyone else in that room at risk in any case, the debate did go on. but whether or not anyone could actually comprehend anything that was said i mean, see for yourself

what to pack today, what you are you in fact, let people know. he isn't were senator russia. i'm not going to answer the question the question the question. justice left. would you really takes you back. >> one of the rare moments on that stage where you could actually hear what was coming from either of the candidates. trump gave this infamous response to whether or not you would condemn white supremacist i'm willing to do anything i wanted to see people what, sir. >> do it say? >> you want to call them? what do you want to call them? give me a name. give me a medic and assess and right stan talk about that. >> bove it if it is we were just about to get your thoughts forward to break i mean, the one thing is that joe biden

looks at donald trump the same way he looks at marjorie taylor greene. >> i didn't notice that at the beginning. that startled, but from the state the second thing i'm going to say is that donald trump is underestimating the president because you could just hear it as kate is when he's talking, he's suggesting that the president will get weaker as he gets older towards the end of the campaign. that was the innuendo there and so the real question is, is you're going to come prepared like he was on the second debate in st. louis in 2016 or xena come ill-prepared like he was on that night when he was bombastic and all over the place. and so i think philly ill. but one thing for sure is that the president is going to come prepared i think the president is going to surprise people because the expectations are going to begin with. >> that's what i was going to comment on. i think there are two things at play here. the first is that my good friends got jinping and many others are going to come on tv on all the networks between now and june and set the expectation level for the president of the united

states somewhere right around hill. that's how low they're going to be. i mean, they're going to say that i don't know if he can walk on stage or he may trip and fall or is it not clock? he may fall asleep. >> so the bar of level of expectations is going to be extremely low. >> so that cuts against donald trump. what cuts against joe biden is history, because presidents do not do well in first debates i mean george hw bush got destroyed by bill clinton in the first debate barack obama, somebody i love, you could talk to ax about it. he got his handed to him in the first debate by mitt romney i mean, he lost that debate. i mean, you can use the legendary arguments after him losing that debate are just well, that is it. >> ego from being in the way because you're not used to somebody talking to you addressing channel anjie, no one's challenging you in the first time you get challenged. and so the expectation levels being president of the united states so busy, i mean, right, i'm sorry to have job. there's i think there's also an extent it will be very prepared

for this though, because i think president knows like the state of the union. these are big moments for him to dispel all the age-related it rumors about it's a high-wire act. i mean, look, biden. they've got to change the narrative and the trajectory of this campaign. he's been president for 13 quarters. there's never been a president and history of modern polling at this point below 40%. he's sitting in the 38% range. they have to change the narrative on. is he capable of a second term? they got to change the narrative on the economy. they got to change the narrative of the framing that trump has successfully put on this campaign. i'm strong. >> he's weak and it infects everything. >> the debate is a hail mary to try to get that done because if that, if that hardens, if that is cemented for too much longer, he'll never dig out of this hole because they have been spending a lot of money now on advertising. and trump has been on trial now for a month and it hasn't shifted the poll numbers. i mean, we don't know. >> they're just less now shot

but what do they need to do? >> care about polling in may of a bridge to sell you in brooklyn, like they don't matter what because they don't matter is snapshot in time. nobody job never been real. >> to pole and wanting that, but they never leaves a poll. >> now, it's a snap once you know it matters, but it doesn't matter. and let me tell you why it doesn't matter. because the fundamentals are what they are joe, donald trump has a very very high floor and a low ceiling everybody knows that he's not going to be a 46, 48% candidate. he's going to be a 42% candidate from now until the end of time. and so these polls is show that all they show a room for growth for joe biden. and let me just the refocus and re prison that this is a hail mary, you know what we have every presidential year, every four years. what do we have presidential debates? and so for us to have presidential debates as anything but a hail mary. in fact, nevertheless, or nick saban maybe calling it a screenplay, never now, never know halfback, shuffle never this early, never at the behest

of a white house that is so far underwater, but it has no idea what they have never been this early, which is a question of who does it benefit more either one, if there is a big stumble, if when trump had such a bad debate in 2020, if it had been earlier, maybe he would have been able to maybe recover from that. but what about the fact that there's going to be no live audience? and the demand from the biden campaign is that the mics stop when you're time expires. so there's not going to be that's gonna be a point of contention for the trump team. the mic stopping, he's going to run over the mic even though it's not working but i don't think the president trump actually cares. i know people say, well, he feeds off the audience and so on and so forth. he wants to get in the ring with joe biden. he knows he got bested by joe biden. he knows he lost the election. the election lies a bunch of nonsense, even ami know is it? so he wants to go back into the ring. it's the way tyson would go back and ordering if he lost the fight or ally if he lost, if it wants to be back in the ring, doesn't care if there's an audience or not but here's one thing. and with all due respect to scott and i do love

the donald trump presidential one. banks has and they got one holloway get three free on. there is a my there, but the where poly when i was a kid, it looks a little i can't afford. >> it it looks like i'm not as rich as you're giving the off at the truly on like sheen. but for limit deliberate and that's a joke about all the trump allies wearing a dark tie, a runtime. >> but get out the vote. election. >> these five decade entities, mr. trump's been in the media for five decades. >> mr. biden, president biden has been in politics for five decades so it's not like a barack obama. let's get to know him 2008 campaign, four this is he's are two known entities all the president has to do is show up there in best him. i think he's going to handle the win the election. >> well the trump team feels confident everyone can watch and find out here on cnn june 20, on thursday. and the scaramucci bucaram sellers,

scott jennings. thank you all for being here, coming up. we have new reporting on the other showdown that is happening in court tomorrow. donald trump's defense team, what they are planning for michael cohen when he's back on the stand and just hours from now also want to cohen's closest advisers will join me as kids. >> they told us to follow our dreams. >> i want to make candle a minute. we started chasing they told us we were being more realistic told us to think about our future said it was too late for us and passions don't pay bills but what they didn't know is that dreamers make their own victory gutters can cause big problems fast until now, call a33 lee filter today for your free gatera i've had terrible flooding problems on my porch.

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americans and book your first cleaning today just $19 we're getting new details tonight about how trump's defense team plans to attack michael coe and when he's back on the witness stand tomorrow morning, a source telling us that trump's lead attorney, todd blanche, is going to challenge statements that cohen made in his direct testimony with prosecutors, including his reckless flexion of a conversation that he had with donald trump basically, they're going to also argue that given he's made past false statements under oath, the jury can't trust what he is saying under oath. >> now, cross-examination could be quite lengthy, and we know that we believed cohen's testimony could wrap up this week, but it may now go until monday here to talk about all of that and what michael cohen's onto look like and what he'll here on the stand

tomorrow. his former attorney, lanny davis, along with attorneys for nauta villa lona and renato is to build great to have you both here. laney, let me start with you because obviously michael cohen, there was a world knockout blow that happened on the on tuesday house he feeling going into tomorrow. what do you think is the most important thing for him to do on the witness stand tomorrow? >> well, first of all, i haven't talked to him since the night of mother's day dinner, where i stepped outside. michigan. well, secondly, the most important thing from michael is to do exactly what he's doing and i would remind everybody that it's not about michael cohen personally, even though that's the only thing that defense really has is to attack michael personally, to change the topic is what the case is about our documents and other witnesses so, the issue of whether there was a political motivation and paying the hush money which makes it a crime that testimony came from hope hicks and david pecker so you don't have to

rely on michael cohen. you can rely on to people who are close friends of his, that it was about the campaign even more so, is this not really newsworthy leak that they're going to attack michael, that there wasn't an arrangement for legal fees. you just have to look at allen weisselberg's handwritten notes that literally prove the document proofs. the jury is going to look at it and it proves that they weren't about legal fees. there was about math allen weisselberg wrote in this document that is in evidence because it was verified to be his handwriting, that the money that michael advanced for stormy daniels payment, which was a hunt 200, $130,000, another $50,000 for a bonus in another $60,000 he paid for the paper, the crowd when donald trump came down the escalator and to pump up as forbes 500, uh, numbers that amount was $210,000 on that piece of paper multiplied by two is $420,000.

divide that by 12. that's the $35,000 check that is sitting president in the oval office wrote to michael cohen. nothing about legal fees. that's about math. so what should say? >> well, online, because just for everyone, i want to make sure when at home understand what you're saying. you're saying that because on that document it's clear that they were basically doing what they adding up, what they needed to pay michael cohen dividing it by 12, that's not typically how a retainer would work. you're saying that's evidenced in and of itself in fact, it's totally contradictory of the notion of legal fees. >> it's about matt, it's about we pain reimbursing and the reimbursement word was used by the federal prosecutors working for the donald trump administration, referred to this as reimbursements and contradicted the assertion of legal fees. those are federal prosecutors and then rudy giuliani on live television said there were reimbursements, but the actual proof is the document. it's about math, it's taking the total number that michael advanced

multiplying by two so that he gets his taxes back. and dividing by 12, no reference to legal fees. they come out to $35,000 in checks personally written at ub donald trump's personal bank account, not company bank account. so as a company expensive, his knee been accompany expense that documents speaks for itself. so the prosecutors leaking what they we all know they're trying to do is to change the subject, make it a personal attack on michael cohen and try to forget about the documents the jury will be looking at those documents. >> well, we'll see what the jury what they hold in higher regard. lanny davis, i know you'll be watching it closely. we'll check in with you after tomorrow. thank you. thank you for joining tonight. we also have renato and bernard it back here with me. i mean, what do you make of what you're hearing from what the trump team is planning and how that could play out with the jury. >> look, there is a different kind of math that we've talked about, which is that michael cohen was getting a salary of $375,000 from the trump

organization. his last check from the trump organization, we've had testimony from jeff mcconney was in january of 2017, his first check from trump or the trump trust is in february of 2017, and it's for $35,000 as i've said, if you divide $375,000 by at 12, you get 31,000 and change the math works out. the timing works out, the problem is, michael cohen says, i didn't do anything. i didn't do any legal work. and the trump team has taken on the burden that they're going to what prove you did do legal work. >> yeah. he said no legal services and also so grossed up but when you look at this and there were there was a big knockout blow from the trump team on tuesday. obviously, they were only there for a little bit. they've got that all day today to kind of prepare what do they need to accomplish tomorrow? all right. thing to cross-examination away. they started out, they completely went flat. it was completely underwhelming. so they are strongest points should have came out on tuesday, went once they

starting now because you've got to think it's the beginning of cross-examination. you got to come out swinging and i did not happen. did you emphasize yes. that michael cohen is obsessed that yes, he is of huge fan of donald trump. he's willing to do anything for donald trump, but that's the exact issue that the prosecution has because he's willing to do anything and everything for donald trump. is this same reason why he put out his money for donald trump to try to save the campaign as much as your dirty michael cohen. guess what? that's the same. reidel die guy that donald trump wanted to be able to clean up his dirt, to be able to fight for him. i'm not concerned about that in terms of what the defense has to do is what they should have been doing from the beginning, attacked inconsistencies and that way you can sell hello, doing close an argument because he was inconsistent on material facts. you can disregard his entire testimony because the two parts that are not corroborated, that's important is the meeting from january 2017, allen weisselberg was de he's only other person that can corroborate. he's not coming to the jury's heard nothing for about him. he's in prison

at rikers and then february 2017 from the oval office. all you have in terms of corroboration, is that his planner? that that whole pick said yeah you had a meeting with him on february of 2017, but you don't have the content of that meeting, so you really have to go out to his credibility. >> i mean, two things that they need to do tomorrow to defense. i think going after michael cohen emphasize his hypocrisy, he was remember he was a lawyer when he's committing all these crimes. if anybody knows better, it's it's why we get so upset when police officers commit crime. it's hypocrisy that will really get to people. that's number one. number two, he was a fat cat getting fatter with all of his tax evasions, his fake hillock loans, he's charging a taxi operator 12% interest when he's paying 5% interest, all of these things lying to his accountant. and that is what is going to get people angry at him. and if you get people angry at him, and emotional and disgusted with him then they're going to disregard his testimony, will be watching closely, especially for that first question from

todd blanche thank you. both will keep everyone updated with our special coverage. of course, here tomorrow morning for now, when we returned tonight, a member of donald trump's legal team is here with insight on how much they believe the defendant in the strategy that he is playing in what is going to happen on the stand tomorrow. that's next make your dream car a reality mercedes-benz certified pre-owned vehicles so rigorously inspected to live up to the highest expectations we just want to have enough money for retirement and traveled to visit our grandchildren i understand. that's what fisher

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trump's reputation with money. my next source is an attorney for donald trump. will sharp. >> i should note he's not working on the hush money case. also, i should note you are republican candidate for missouri's attorney general. and will it's great to have you back here on the source, but obviously, you know, you know what it's like to be an attorney for donald trump, todd blanche is the one handling this hit his first two questions during the cross-examination on tuesday were met with sustained objections from the judge and also get a scolding from him who accused todd blanche of making it about himself. how do you think todd blanche? it's and what does he need to do tomorrow i think todd's and outstanding attorney i think his conduct throughout this trial has been exemplary. i think what we're dealing with here as a witness who's made out of court statements that are utterly reprehensible about both president trump and members of his legal team, including todd blanche, and i think todd was within his rights in terms calling into question the witnesses credibility to ask the questions that he did. i think we're going to continue to see

aggressive cross-examination when trial recommences tomorrow as we've seen with many of these witnesses. but overall, i give president trump's trial team and absolute a here i think we're heading frankly, for a directed verdict in any fair court in the country because the prosecution hasn't come close to meeting their burden on crucial elements of the crimes alleged. and i think that any fair jury would acquit rapidly and without much question. so we'll see how trial concludes. we'll see what happens after the conclusion of michael cohen's testimony. i'm one tomorrow, but i get president trump's trial team and as a obviously it's up to the jurors to decide if they've met the burden here. but but on that point if you were in there doing that cross-examination, would you have made the first two questions about what michael cohen has said about you, the attorney and the other attorney on the team i think first, of all, whenever you think about cross-examination, you're looking to establish a cadence and a narrative. and i think todd's cadence narrative, we're right on the narrative is that this is an

uncontrollable witness a witness who said numerous first things, who's obviously perjured himself numerous times as came out and testimony on tuesday, it's about undermining the credibility of the witness, and i think todd did that very effectively. >> you know, the one person when you talk about what the corroboration here is and what michael cohen has testified you, michael cohen has testified that these warrant legal services that he none were rendered. it wasn't a retainer and he's also talked about his private conversations with donald trump saying that he acknowledged this reimbursement plan. i mean, it essentially, if trump denied it, it would make it cohen's word against his. do you think that donald trump should take the stand to say under oath what he says outside the courtroom that michael cohen is lying i think that's gonna be a question for the trial team after they after the prosecution's case concludes tomorrow, but i think it's really important to note caitlin that the media pays a lot of attention to michael cohen and stormy daniel's. >> i think the two most

important witnesses here with respect back to the actual crime alleged, which is business records, fraud were deb tarasoff and jeff mcconney, whose testimony is essentially completely exonerated of any fraudulent intent with the way that these records were actually entered. i mean, i believe that those two types of those two witnesses alone, there testimony is absolutely fatal to this case so this case monday's was so helpful. what part of that? he was the trump board controller for people who are why was what was his that was so important that you believe well, the prosecution has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the way these records were entered, the fact that they were entered as legal payments demonstrates fraudulent intent jeff mcconney testified that for the 30 plus years he'd been with the trump organization every single payment to a lawyer had been dino two i've been denoted in essentially exactly the same way.

>> if anything, that shows that this was a bookkeeping error, not business records fraud. two very, very different things in the eyes of the law. i think his testimony was very helpful to the defense and hasn't gotten nearly enough tension attention in the news media well, you're an attorney, obviously. have you ever gotten a legal return return retainer that was grossed up by hundreds of thousands of dollars i mean, i've received payment for legal services in many ways before contingency fees fee per hour. >> i think different people come to different agreements with their gotten but that's okay. caitlin been owed a certain amount, say $100,000 that you did in billable hours and you got $330,000 caitlin, i respectfully, the point here is that the payments are ancillary to the case that the prosecution is trying to prove which, relates to the records of the payments, not the payments themselves. >> hush money reimbursement for hush money, none of that's a

crime. what the prosecution is required to prove beyond a reasonable doubt is that business records in this case, entries made in president trump's personal ledger were fake and were made with an intent to defraud and were made with an attentive cover up another crime. i don't think they're close to meeting that burden here well, we'll see what the jury decides here, of course. >> and first, we'll get to the cross-examination. michael cohen will scharf. thank you for joining tonight. >> great to be with you, kaitlyn, thanks for having me speaking of trump attorneys or former top attorneys. a big question tonight. whereas rudy giuliani, that's what arizona prosecutors are asking the as they have been trying to serve him for notice of his indictment and that state for weeks seeded has new reporting on his whereabouts next jan sugar ray leonard, you everyday tasks wearing boxing gloves bird and now putting on his new arch fit sketcher slip-ups, you just step in and go with

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here tonight to discuss someone who has covered and rudy giuliani for three decades. andrew kurtzman, the author of giuliani, the rise and tragic fall of america's mayor and tragic, it's certainly is. i mean, the idea that agents, which are trying to track down rudy giuliani is so closely that were told he livestreamed. they matched the background to a real estate listing, an old one, and showed up at his new york apartment and tried to serve him. but they were totally wasn't there. >> right? >> well, it's out of the trump playbook that giuliani would try to turn the criminal cases against them into a circus, right? that's what trump has done. and this is what giuliani is done. you if it the leads prosecutors on a wild goose chase so much the better he loves the attention. you know, the difference is that donald trump is probably on his way to getting the republican nomination for president. and rudy giuliani is going nowhere except perhaps jail since the last time i saw you and we talked about, you know, everything that was happening

with rudy giuliani. he's been indicted. again. i mean, he hasn't gotten his actual notice urine arizona, but he's now been indicted in another state well he's in trouble i mean, giuliani is all about principles, right? because principles have made him to him in his mind, a great mayor is america's mare. he stuck by his principles the problem is that ever since he fell in with trump, his principles that's led him to do terrible things, right? he's defamed these two election workers, tried to overturn an election in ukraine scandal. he led to an impeachment. i'm at giuliani is he's a singular is a singular force. he's a man who believes in what he's doing, even though what he's doing is wrong, what he's still oh's those two election workers, a handsome amount of money which they may never see and just this week, i mean, the idea of whether or not he's learned his lesson. we know the answer to that because he just got fired from wabc radio here in new york by an ally of donald

trump's over the fact that he wouldn't stop talking about the election on his radio show when they said, you have to stop talking about the election, it's a principle to him, right? >> it's important that america knows that that election was stolen, even though it's been proved 1,000 times that it wasn't stolen. >> and he he was willing to cut off the last major platform that he has i mean, giuliani lives for relevance, but he is really scrounging for the last drop of relevance, right now. and he cut off also probably as last major source of income all in service of his beliefs. >> yeah. and i mean, the idea that america's mayor, as he was once considered as now been fired from a radio show because he's spreading conspiracy theories out the election. he's also selling coffee. i mean, we saw this today. this is on his website. it's a message. you can see these old photos or juliana says its quality, you can trust, you can pre-order it. he signed the bags of coffee just as someone who's covered in for so long

did you ever think you'd see an image like that on his website? >> no, i never thought i would see that image. i never thought he would be selling cameo appearances on video for $300 a pop i mean, he's he's bankrupt you. it's $150 he's selling property being is and if you remember, this is a guy who after nine, 11 cashed in, opened a firm that made 100 million years. he flew on private jets, right? his speaking fees were $200,000 a pop. i mean, now for him to be selling coffee under his name and is an american tragedy. >> i mean, $150 million. that's a lot of cameo videos for a lot of coffee. andrew kurtzman, great to have you as always, to document just what we are witnessing and how remarkable it is. up next, we're shining a light on a special american doing a short narrow things, a champion for change, providing help to some people who need it. the most

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champions verjee as presented by charles schwab, bone, your tomorrow, go to cnn.com slash champions to learn and about the pioneers using courage, grit, and creativity to move society forward and exciting and inspiring ways students, champions for change is saluting the unsung heroes who are improving people's lives tonight's seen as laura coates has a personal story about a dentist who is providing both dental care, but also hope for the people who need it the most are you doing man good? he does so much more than clean teeth also teachers he motivates. he's like a therapist. he's so much more than a dent you have demonstrated philosophy of providing care and respect and

dignity to anyone who needs your help. >> i do what i do because this is what god put me on this earth for i'm actually the daughter of a dentist who really devoted his life to public service previous and ensuring dental care was given to people who are most in need, he would go into the prisons. >> he really believed in meeting people where they were you also wanted to go into the prisons. i understand as well the only to provide that service, but you recognize in many ways, but why should they be? he denied the dignity of care. >> there's a shortage of diminished in prisons around the country. most inmates asieh nine of them, they really a grateful they get to get out of pain. if i can be courteous and kind and respectful and do my job and treat you good, regardless of who you are, where you you are, that's my goal this is new foundations home for children. >> we have kids in the foster

care system and we have kids in the juvenile justice system. he serves and under served population. he's not making a lot of money off these kids. he comes because he feels lead to be here i got here around 2019 because had other foster home that was at and that didn't work out as she cleans my teeth. >> he talks to me about my ambitions. he remembers everything. i tell him and i'm not his only client. >> so this mind-blowing to know that you back a plaintiff seed is somebody unknowingly could just doing my job. we're doing the way that i do it. it will influence them to make good decisions and be more productive citizen. >> he's absolutely correct getting a brighter future for these kids after he graduated from howard, he practiced with me for about nine years my hazel, she's a reason that i am edina today and i wanted to make sure that we were treating medicaid population the patients that had public insurance and my goal was to make sure that don dre knew

that in life everyone meets treated with dq db spec. >> my father's work inspired me to be a champion for social justice. he is someone who could have done anything with the mind maybe has and he always chose to reinvest into the communities a, to work for him in his office. now he did fire me. can i talk too much? >> i never forgot the smiles in that office and you know, i am a black woman in america okay. >> intergenerational wealth has often alluded intergeneration. >> but what has not alluded us is the passing down of. the knowledge of the community service that imparts a sense of morality and justice within us and so to hear that he was inspired by his aunt and to feel compelled within himself take it forward. is the