as newsday continues straight after hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk. i'm stephen sackur. love it or loathe it, there is no denying formula 1 is one of the world's biggest sporting brands, attracting billions of eyeballs and commercial revenues to match. the best—known names are the drivers, the greats like senna, lauda, schumacher, hamilton, and today's number one, verstappen. but the key figures are the racing team bosses. my guest today, sir ron dennis, founded the mclaren group and was one of the most successful bosses in f1 history. what was behind his drive, not just to survive, but to thrive? sir ron dennis, welcome to hardtalk.

thank you for having me. oh, it's a great pleasure to have you here. i have read how you fell in love with motorsport as a teenager. i think you went to brands hatch when you were a teenager and just loved the smells, the sights of it. do you still have that love of motorsport today? i still enjoy watching a grand prix, but save for that, it's really a thing of the past for me. the main reason for me changing direction, i don't even know how to spell "retirement," was really the looming of my 70th birthday.

and it was a little scrappy at the end, i have to say, primarily driven by disagreement over the value of my shares. but once... in the mclaren group, which you had done so much to create and to build. well... ..i like to feel that i pretty much built it. of course, no one individual builds anything, but, um, when i left the building on my 70th birthday, because that was very symbolic to me... mm. ..it was really a full stop in a chapter of my life. i want to take you right back. i mean, it seems to me very unusual that a man who gets into the sport as, and i'm going to be blunt about it, a pretty lowly mechanic... ron laughs ..ends up being a multi—multimillionaire, owning one of the biggest motorsport companies in the world. that's a pretty unusual trajectory.

how did you leverage your status as a mechanic to move into management? well, i think the first thing is you've got to appreciate a grand prix team. when i went to my first grand prix, there were eight people on the team, and i think there were eight grands prix that year. it was a completely different set of... you know, the whole pressure, the pressures were different. you were responsible for building the car with normally a team of people that were back at base. but even then, that would probably total a handful, 25 people, maybe. so you would feel quite privileged to go to a grand prix and represent the team. but you loved the engineering of it, you loved handling the parts and building the car. well, the thing is, there's an expression... ..you know, form follows function. you know, there's a beautiful elegance to components that are well designed, go together with precision, and then function as a whole, be it, you know, let's say a beautifully

handcrafted watch or, let's say, the space station or a grand prix car, i just love the elegance, and i'm absolutely passionate and driven by this obsessive attention to detail. i love that metaphor of the precision watch, because there's so much about your career that smacks of this almost obsessional attention to precision, to detail, and to data—driven research. yeah. i mean, you created, in mclaren, a cutting—edge technology company. yes. i am obsessive compulsive, there is no question. you actually have ocd? i have ocd, but the difference about my ocd is i learnt to turn it into a sort of life force. for those who don't remember, you, i believe i'm right in saying,

won 17 championships, either drivers�* championships for your drivers or manufacturers�* championships for mclaren. yeah. it's an incredible record. you're arguably the most successful team boss of all time. and i'm just wondering, this perennial discussion about whether, in the end, it is the car and the design that is supreme in formula i, or whether, in the end, it's the skill of the driver. you are in a better position than anyone... mm. ..to draw a conclusion. well, of course, i had some fantastic drivers in the team, and i used... i hesitate, i want to go back, i said, ","i there is nothing "i" about a grand prix team... mm. ..you know, the expertise if you... ..let�*s say, focus on "what did i bring to the performance?" it was to choose the right people, to put together a team that was dominant, and then

understand why that team was... ..let�*s say, moving towards an... ..in an uncompetitive direction, arresting it and then taking, you know, changing the compass heading. true leadership is constantly changing the compass heading, and it needs to be done based on well—considered data in order... i get that point, and i get the point about the team, but here's a quote from an engineer and a designer in formula i called mike gascoyne. yeah. i think you know him, and i think he worked for a while at mclaren. most of them did. he said this — "you win world championships in the wind tunnel, "you win them in the design office." he says, "no driver can beat physics." yes. do you agree with him? yeah, i do, but i always say, you know, if a driver's sat on the grid in his underpants, he's not going very far, is he? i mean, drivers... ..very rarely fully appreciate

the role of the team, because they have to have a phenomenal amount of self—belief. right. it can never be them. they, you know... and you shouldn't really... you should never pressure them to take responsibility for mistakes. it's much better if they're honest. i mean, niki lauda would quickly acknowledge a mistake, and it'd be infuriating, because if someone owns up to a mistake, there's not much you can do about it, even if you're looking at a rather mangled car that he's thrown into the barriers. but... did you do, therefore... sorry to interrupt, but you mentioned lauda, and of course you worked with lauda, you worked with senna, you worked with prost, you know, the greats of your era, but frankly of any era, did you have to learn, as well as this data—driven, science—driven part of your brain, did you have to learn the skills of individual ego management and man management to get the best out of each of them? 0h, absolutely.

i mean, i sometimes watch, you know, the odd football match, and i'm not... that's because my son's interested in it, but you see managers, and they've got iconic names, i sometimes doubt whether anyone really knows why they�* re successful. and, of course, their primary success is coming from man management and understanding the skills required, and also positioning people in the right place. it's no different in a grand prix team. you have to be really good at everything, and if you're weak at something, make sure you've got somebody that you can put into that position that's going to cover that weakness. is it true, thinking of this man management and how you built teams successively that won, is it true that when you were trying to hire ayrton senna, who it was clear was one of the young and most brilliant drivers, that he was haggling with you over a contract, i think over $500,000 or something... mm—hm. ..and you said, "i'll tell you what, "we'll toss a coin for it. "either you win or i win, "and you either get the 500,000 or you don't." is that true?

uh, it... to make it an accurate story, it was $250,000, but it was a three—year contract, so the amount that was being played for... and i always want to, when people ask me that, i want to... i never trivialise money. the problem is he was extremely determined and i was very determined. he wanted to drive mclaren, i wanted him to drive for mclaren, and we were absolutely deadlocked. and i actually said, knowing he was quite religious, i said, "look," you know, "do you believe in chance? "do you believe that there are greater forces "in this world than mankind?" and he said, "of course there is. there's god." i said, "well, let god decide. let's flip a coin." and he didn't really understand. i had to draw a picture of a head and a tail to make quite sure that, when this coin came to rest, that there was no dispute. and all he did was laugh, you know, we both laughed. and, of course, neither of us actually realised that it was a multiple of three. so it was a lot of

money, but it was... well, who won? i did, actually. i normally did, but... i normally bet the drivers more for humour than anything else, and it's a great breaker of tensions in relationships. it brings some humour and brings some frivolity... well, you know what? these stories are fascinating and never mind the humour, it's deeply human, your relationship with the drivers. of course. but i'm also mindful that this era, and we're talking about, you know, through the '80s and the '90s, you were so supremely successful. you're building relationships with the drivers, they're almost like family, but it's an era when there were more fatalities... mm. ..in motor racing, in f1, than there are today. the safety standards were not the same. well, yes and no. really, the real difficult era, you know, the '70s... undoubtedly, but let's face it, senna died the year

after he left your team. that's quite true, but... and, well, this is what i want to ask you, because i wonder if you've reflected on this in recent years. you, and i'm sure this is a mix of good fortune, but also your management, you didn't lose a driver to death... mm. ..during your entire span as a team boss. if you had... ..do you have the character that would have coped easily with that, or do you think that would have really, really hit you badly? hmm, very good question. i can't give you an honest answer other than to say i constantly reflected on it. would i stop if a driver lost his life in one of my cars? i think the circumstances would have been relevant. there are things that you feel responsible for and there's things that you aren't responsible for. i mean, a tyre failure is a classic example where, you know, the accident can be pretty devastating, but it never... i'm just so lucky i never found myself in that position. but it wasn'tjust luck, you know, we were extremely mindful in the company of the drivers�* need to survive accidents,

but also to be uninjured. so you�*re balancing out, throughout this career of yours, and in this particular sporting business, you�*re balancing out the intense will to win with also that sense of responsibility to put safety always at the top of your agenda. yes. do you think the will to win ever got the better of you? and i�*m now thinking about probably the lowest point in your career in motorsport, which was 2007, when you were basically accused at mclaren of handling confidential leaked information... mm. ..that had come from ferrari. you didn�*t commission it, but nonetheless you got it, and it was deemed that you did not front up and handle it properly, and you were fined a huge amount of money... mm. ..as a business.

yeah. $100 million, i believe. indeed, yeah. yeah. do you think you got that wrong, and was it because of your intense will to win? well, you know, i corrected you earlier when i said it wasn�*t... ..that it�*s never about ","i and that certainly wasn�*t about i" these were the actions of a rogue employee. the actual material... you mean at ferrari, who gave you the information? no. no, he never gave us the information, he gave material... they had effectively conspired to take material from both companies and offer their services to an uncompetitive team... mm. ..with this data. the data was handed to my engineer in spain, and he took it home. he commissioned his wife to have it photocopied. he then... this all came out. no, i remember the story very well. ..and then the material was shredded and the discs on which the material were never left his property. so nothing came, ever,

physically into the company other than what was in his mind. and he didn�*t even apply any of that to the circumstances. and you�*ve always said that, but the fact is... yes, but let me give you... this is a short programme, so i�*ll try and keep it very, very precise. as is witnessed at the moment by things that are going on in grand prix racing, none of which i have... you�*re referring to the red bull situation? not just that, other things. when you are a dominant force, everybody tries to tear you down. it starts with the teams, it then goes to the governing bodies, even then it goes to... it isn�*t in the interests of motorsport for a team to dominate, so everything starts to work against you and you have to be very, very resilient. in that instance... ..we had one of two options — accept the fine that was imposed

on us, or face a two—year ban of competing. and at that time, whilst it�*s one hell of a lot of money, we had the ability to write a cheque and move forward. and it was... you didn�*t appeal, and you paid up the money, and it was a lot of money, and mclaren was hurt by it. ijust wonder, on reflection, and all these years later, do you think that you, um, were treated... ..with a personal... 100%. ..sort of vindictiveness? yes, yes. i mean, i could have been... is it because you had enemies in motor racing? very powerful enemies, like bernie ecclestone, like max mosley, two of the biggest names administering the sport? exactly, but... absolutely. i mean, and, uh, you know, the reality is that you�*re... in circumstances you are faced normally with choice. at that point, i had no choice. and it wasn�*t me, i was

representing the company. and in the period in which we were, let�*s say, facing this, uh, the governing body in a sort of tribunal, there was a lunch break where they considered... i spoke to each of the shareholders and each of our sponsors, consulted with them, gave them the options, and they were totally supportive of the decision, notjust taken by myself, that we shouldn�*t appeal, because the fact is that would then be two years of racing under appeal, and the only way would have been to have taken it into the civil courts. and it�*s a very long, drawn—out process. and then you say, "why?" i�*m just going to bring you up—to—date, because obviously you still watch what�*s happening in formula i, and one of the dominant stories right now, as you well know, is that the dominant team in formula i right now, red bull, has a problem, because their team boss, christian horner, has faced complaints from a female employee, allegations of coercive, abusive behaviour and sexual harassment.

mm—hm. he has absolutely always denied any wrongdoing, there was an internal investigation, red bull concluded that there was no case to answer, but the story rumbles on, and it comes to this point you made earlier about team leadership. mm. do you think it is tenable... ..is it tenable for a team leader to be under that kind of scrutiny and pressure and continue to conduct, to orchestrate the team? i think it�*s wholly inappropriate for me to have an opinion on that particular topic. i�*ve been out of formula i for now seven years. i know no more, uh, than probably you. and the reality is it doesn�*t... it�*s notjust about formula i, there are lots of chief executives, people in very senior positions, politicians, that face comparable things in their lives, and i just feel that there is more to it.

and i�*m not saying what is right or wrong, but the environment in which that team is placed is one where everybody wants to see it fail. and i think that�*s the point, and the only point i�*d make, that i�*m notjudging anything that took place or didn�*t take place, all i�*m saying is that�*s what happened. and ijust want to go back. there�*s always sometimes other motives, and in my circumstances, what had happened previously is i�*d successfully taken the governing body and bernie ecclestone to court in brussels — with two other teams, but i led the charge — and brussels ruled that a governing body could not have any commercial involvement in the sport. and that changed the complete direction of travel of grand prix racing, because the governing body wanted to participate... mm. ..and max mosley wanted to participate, in the financials

side of motor racing, and brussels ruled against him. and from that moment on, every now and then, i felt the laser of the site fall on me. i had to dodge every single bullet, and that was for years that led to that... well... ..and then that individual, just to finish, who, unbeknown to me, for his own personal motives, put the team in a vulnerable position, that�*s what gave the opportunity to the governing body to jump all over me. and i mean, ijust... well, i sense your bitterness about that, and there�*s one other element of your career that i do want quickly to address, and that is the way it finally ended. you alluded to it earlier, but you, in the end, were sort of, if i may say so, forced out of the company that you had built by your long—time ally and partner, mansour 0jjeh... yeah. ..and you�*d been together for so many years. yes. a lot of motorsport fans around the world want

the answer to a very simple question — why? why did your relationship with this man that you had worked with for so long, and built mclaren with, why did that relationship collapse, and why, in the end, were you forced out of your own company? i wasn�*t. that�*s it. i was 70 years old... i know that. ..my contract... my contract with the company finished in january 2017. the issue was perceived, we did have significant disagreements. 0ver what? over the fact that i was building a technology company, and i want to push forward as a technology company, he, other members of the board, were focused on formula i when we�*d proven so effectively we could build a great car company, we had a great technology division, but the direction of travel of the company — i go back to the true heading, true north — was always me. and when i saw that that wasn�*t going to exist when i left,

i wanted the right price for my shares, and the fight was about the value of the shares, not about anything else. a final thought, then, and it�*s about risk. because from being that teenager who fell in love with motor racing when you watched your first race at brands hatch to now, you�*ve seen risk and danger go down in motorsport. we talked about the fatalities being far fewer than they used to be. you now, it seems, one of your big preoccupations, is taking a lot of the risk and the danger out of other sports, particularly for young people. mm. you�*ve spent millions of pounds of your own money... correct. ..working on the science and the data points to get to safer sport for young people. well, all people, really. all grassroots sports. there are 26 million people play sport. only i% of that 26 million are professional. all the others are called grassroots sports enthusiasts. they, you know, the whole essence of sport, which i totally support, is to improve, improve your mind,

improve your body, it�*s a great thing to do. we are pro—sport. what i�*m not "pro" is taking... ..not having the data, science—based data, to support regulatory change or apparel wearing that reduces the amount of injury in sport. if you took 100 men randomly, between the ages of 30 and 40, i would guarantee 50% of them are carrying some injury of some sort, or some bad shoulder, bad knee, etc, through sport. and all i�*m trying to do is make sure that sport is safer for everybody. and you don�*t need to be an einstein to realise that if there�*s a hard ball involved in the sport, or if there�*s collision in the sport, then you�*ve got some problems when it comes

to the deceleration and acceleration of the brain. and so the simple fact of not understanding what�*s going on in order to bring in simple rule changes to make it safer, that�*s what it�*s all about. it�*s trying to make it safer. you supported rule changes in f1. are you now saying that sports like rugby and american nfl football are going to have to fundamentally change? i think, if change is brought on any of these sports, it�*s got to be science—based, data—led, and then the sport itself has to look at its responsibilities to the athletes and take decisions that are appropriate. there is nothing wrong with impact sport, but it can be played safer using science and data as the tool from which you determine rule change, or perhaps apparel wear. sir ron dennis, i guess the message is follow the data and the science. i thank you forjoining me on hardtalk.

thanks a lot. you�*re welcome. hello there. looking at thursday�*s weather, we�*ve got some, i think, wet weather on the way to parts of england and wales with some thundery rain at times. on wednesday, here�*s the day of sunny spells and passing showers. some of those showers, mind you, were very heavy, for example, here in hebden bridge. but looking at the satellite picture, you can see a stripe of cloud just here, that�*s a weather front that stretches all the way into europe. there�*s our fronts.

but bumping into that front, we�*ve got this trough here, this line of very intense showers. you might get the sense that these areas of rain are merging together. well, i think that�*s exactly what�*s going on. and they will tend to run towards england over the coming hours. so weather wise, over the next few hours, not so much of an issue. we�*ll have some low cloud effects, some of our north sea coast, a few mist and fog patches here and occasional spots of rain or drizzle. drier weather elsewhere with temperatures around ten or 11 degrees quite widely. the problems with the forecast come tomorrow. i think there is a risk of seeing more widespread rain initially across eastern areas of england through thursday morning before moving across the midlands and on it�*s parts of wales and the west country as we head into the afternoon. so the details are going to be quite difficult to come by but expect the chance of seeing some heavy thundery rain at times across parts of england and wales. further northwards for northern ireland sunshine through the morning and a dry morning. the afternoon, yeah, you could see a storm or two breaking out. most of scotland, in contrast to all of that will be dry,

although there will be some mist and low cloud across eastern areas and spots of drizzle through the morning, the afternoon, the best of the sunshine into the northwest and that�*s where we�*ll see temperatures at their highest, probably reaching around 23 degrees or so. heading into friday the weather pattern is still rather unsettled, but hopefully a bit more straightforward. it should be a day of sunshine and showers through the afternoon for england and wales. some of those turning heavy and thundery. the drier weather will be further north again for scotland and for northern ireland, where most places will keep spells of sunshine and temperatures well into the low twenties. that�*s going to feel pleasant with light winds. for the weekend weather picture, we�*re still at low pressure close to the south of the uk, a ridge of high pressure trying to build in from the northwest. and so it�*s again scotland and northern ireland that will have the dry ice weather through the weekend. england and wales, meanwhile, will have the chance of seeing a few more showers to come. bye for now.

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