a tendency to let him do that to us. the evidence in this case is frankly even stronger than that that we had against the nazis at nuremberg. and these crimes continued in the fast of a 2 part series out to 0 photos, powerful cases of little crimes against civilians allegedly killed by the syrian government. with photographic evidence from the seas of files, the lost souls of syria on al jazeera, angry protests in georgia, the bottom, it says, approved a circle for an agents film. critics site will stay of the country away from democracy by adopting russian style system. so what's next? for georgia and could this and it's aspirations to join the be here. this is inside story, the

hello. welcome to the program until mccrae protest send a wrist and to placing georgia's problem it has signed off on the controversial bill. spiking outraging the capital. in april, the government announced it was reviving legislation that would require media and non government organizations to register themselves as borne agents if they receive more than 20 percent of their funding from abroad. now that leads to weeks of mass demonstrations. the government says the lawyers needed to promote transparency and preserve sovereignty, but is it assign? georgia is moving closer to russia and how much of the fact the countries hopes of joining the european union. and we'll put those and all the questions to our guests . and just a moment that this, this report by image and kinda protest is shop done, pulse of to just capital t c pointing back against. and you notice the for an agent to the over the calls,

the products are no risk. besides this, the sewage, the direction all towards a basically copied the same laws in california agent bill to bill will require organizations receiving moving 20 percent of funding from approved to register as agents of for an influence. they would then be monitored by the ministry of justice, can bills to show sensitive information to potentially face hefty fines. critics say this negatively affect media outlets and non governmental organizations could be used to stifle free speech. clump time on the government's political opinions. it seemed to similar to legislation in russia that's used to press up position, but the government says the lulu stabilize the country and we've come for an influence. sounds good service posts, us visit the adoption of the low on the transparency of phone improvements,

creates a strong guarantees of long term peace and tranquility in georgia. and to overcome the so called poet evaluation, which is a necessary condition for georgia integration into the european union versus the bill now goes to president selling these will be spending, who will set you will use of the time to block it. but her decision can be overwritten by another vote in parliament control by the prime minister's ruling party, georgia dream. and it's always the youth says the bill was damaged george's bid to join the blog. something that is a flash point. so many protest as this law is going to destroy the european future that lake country has been fighting for. and the value southern sisters have been fighting for for ages. the u. s. is wound georgia not destroyed with most groups against the west threatening sanctions, saying, applying $390000000.00 and assistance would be reviewed. demonstrations have been helpful weeks cried snow bringing kinds of sizes for just

a police to be the biggest in georgia since it regained independence from russia. 1991 and despite a heavy handed response by police and with the bill looking set to pulse, they don't show any signs of stopping. imaging came the out to 0 inside story. the cadets bringing out guess now all of them joining us from to play see holmes. the good for is a professor of public policy at george's leah state university. he's been working in the corpus region since 1999 and policy research. and with the think tanks could, yvonne, she is really, is a senior research it with transparency international, georgia which is likely to be seriously impacted by the new for an agents law. and does she have it done? see who is a campaign strategist with shame, a protest movement stood up to the protests in georgia in 2019. thank you so much for joining us here on inside story. and so if i can begin with you,

it really feels like this is one of those moments where everything really is in the balance in georgia. can you just give us an idea of how much is at stake right now? the best way to describe what's at stake is that this is a kind of crew that is a strong word. that's really what's happened in georgia is that over the years, the courts, the culture sector, a lot of independent institutions have essentially been captured by the government and of the, the sectors of society that was left standing with civil society. and this law that looks like it's about transparency actually makes it possible for the government to repress essentially any civil society organization. it was the right way of describing it is it's a refresher anyone you want the law that stigmatized since institutions it opens them up to intrusion, expose them to june of, to fines,

and all of this can be slapped arbitrarily off of civil society organizations. so when you see lots of people protesting, they're not just protesting about a single law. they feel that essentially the country is being taken away from them . and this is what drives people's anger and also people's fear. mm. it could have fun. is that how it feels into place in your organization, transparency international? georgia is obviously going to be affected by this. what impact is it going to have for you and your organization? thank you. as you might know, the slow that was adult that yesterday with a 4 towards the side has nothing to do with the transparency and it's directly targeting 3 sites orientations and critical media in georgia. so at this point, this slow can not be considered as a law against only suicide in georgia, but also the law that is targeting the west and western um,

so some parts to georgia. well, transparency internationally swan is the realization is doing any critical or for just them by pressing. therefore, yes, will be um, pretty much, uh, affected by this, but georgia has a uh, freight 5 friends um large suicide serving jason single girl. a, as you can see, they are alternate streets for testing this because they see that the core of the slope, it's not only a narrow target of suggest civic society but also the georgia european future. if you can just specifically explain how you are organization is going to be impact as well. the line. so and visions to is specifically target civic sites organizations in critical media, buying pulsing financial functions unless they are reduced during a special database as agents. uh and therefore,

organizations like us might be forcefully registered on this day and registered himself and significant about us. a financial functions will be in post on dose earnings ations, which is quite critical. i'm a big and a financial uh, trend support organizations like this. yeah, it does, as we've seen huge numbers of people out on the streets, protesting in opposition to this. but the government says, and it's supposed to say that this will result about transparency and preventing outside influence on george and politics. that can only be a good thing surely. well, definitely the, the agenda that they haven't closed on their public campaign is about as transparency and, and, and their motivation as they say, is to ensure that the public knows of how the civil society organizations are funded. that's aware of the real reason behind the behind the royce is of course

not to have transparency because they see the civil society organizations on the in utah sector in georgia is one of the most transparent sectors in the country. we are required by financial law to provide a final separation period like usually to the ministry of finance about every beat of operation. that is the tower organization does. and this is because it universities is not only about us. so basically, what we are seeing now is the russians are rushing call peter's attempts to clear the field from the critical voices of being. and you can monitor the election . so can investigate governments corruption who can defend people in a system with legal aid while they are um, you know, punish spybot says yeah, more it's a or it cetera. so what they're seeing now is a very, very sparse, very violent attack on george's constitutional aims of trying to be integrated

within the u. n. h o. because the slow and this is not only my opinion assessments as the u. nato and every beat of a or just the talk to him, just friends of george's partner saying that for the slow him, painter, georgia. so you won't be an inspiration, so i'm going to so you're looking at perspective. so looking at the visualization, we have that kind of thing. what we'll get onto the impact that this is going to have on the separations to join the you and just some of them. but holmes, can you just give us a bit of an idea or a bit of context about what the government's problem is with an outside media organize sessions and enjoys because it really feels like it's not just a distrust or dislike anymore from the georgia dream. how do you read that is being described as more of resentment bordering on hatred? why is that? why is the government, i guess, trying to do this? what is it trying to achieve? of what the government's trying to achieve is precisely to suck organizations like

transparency international. the steps k t uh, works with to shut them down. if you go to the website of transparency international, you can actually find out in some work 20 seconds who funds them. what they do with that funding and how much they receive. but you can also find out rather quickly the um, the 150 cases of high level of corruption or allegations of kind of a corruption to remain on investigated certainty of those concerns. concerning peas . yesterday we have same piece voting in favor and all of this is just what the boss know. and that means almost certainly there is much more 30 or other cases concern cabinet level senior officials, prime minister ministers, deputy ministers. if you're the government, if you're correct government, you consider it institutions that highlight your, your corruption. of course, you consider them highly politicized. most sensible people would consider that, that, that sensible, kind of unnecessary work in, in

a functioning democracy. what's really important for people to understand though it's not only just about these organizations, it is also to day organizations that work on animal rescue. people that's to try and save cash people that weren't history dollars. they will also be affected and they say they cannot consider continue operating. so this will, that the state has the risk of devastating, essentially anything that does not state controlled. and that's a, that's a very, very big shift. that's a very threatening burden, ominous development. and it, it could have been a, i heard one protest to who was out on the streets describe this government and the supporters of the floor is a slave to russia. does it feel like at this point in time that the country really is moving in that direction of the government is attempting to move the country in that direction? thank you for depression. absolutely. at this point, when the slow government basically declares that their intention with the slowest

of to go against the west. so right now the situation is not just about government versus civic side turbans ations, but it's about the government versus the west. is it something that we witnessed then listened to the speech for the owner determined the oligarch felisa ruler of george's government and who has been capturing the state for over several years that we have researched as a transparency international, georgia. and he specifically outlined in his speech 2 weeks ago that he sees with the west as a diverse race. their current business law goes beyond very narrow view of being with just attacks on civic sites, the organization in georgia. but therefore, it is a very alarming trend of georgia's post a shift towards russia and is exactly why we see protests being this massive and

non stop for a months now. you should just on the, on the purchase, the desk looking watching from the outside. it feels that there's an intensity and a passion there from the protesters. can you just explain why young people in particular a so in the sense by this low um yes, i would agree to the, to the description that you just said. um, i do think that the reason behind the youngsters being so active uh in, in the process then basically being the car of the old woman these because this informing me we were more in a free georgia. we were born in an independent country that was uh, 3 out of the somebody dream. and they go to the sadie on the rules and principles of how, how do we waive right and my dinner ration has, has experience a time. so when we, as a country of fight rapidly, we had the new opportunities to get education, to get new jobs, to travel,

to europe and other countries to basically be part of the global word world, which we couldn't have been years before. so i do think that the young, younger generation is concerned about losing all of this, about losing the losing, being parts of a civilization, a width of civilization as a whole, and somehow be more into the camp of russia. and it's still another one of the recovery and countries like bellows and others. i do think that people perceiving that's based as the people at the moment when george are either a goes towards the. busy band and gets on nation or mission accomplished or against facts. so it's passed while being with russia. he's right now and we're at the crossroads. yeah, i'm just on, on that point. you know, a part of the country is still under russian control. does the georgia government have to keep that in mind here as well as i clearly know, part of nice oh the you, you and they don't have the protection that those organizations off the surface georgia, have to be careful here. do you think the traditional main for,

for centuries has been at a difficult time to challenging spa and so to speak, between big powers in the past in the last 30 years when your next phase, severe crises, what it awesome do it was, it was with western friends and partners, and it worked with the people that actually brought if you will, goodwill to through this. and i think it's fair to say that that maybe that's not the case around the world that, that people look at the west and western united states. and you in the kind of very positive way, but the end the call, cuz i think it's really fair to say it's been overwhelming. the a positive influence of experience with the rest of it has been very, very bad. that's maybe and something you don't see from the outside. but, you know, to watch us have been killed in these occupied territories quite recently in recent years with total impunity and therefore for them, it's for many people. they want ultimately to work with

a west. so you need to is maybe somehow you're in a difficult neighborhood. sure. do you need to kind of navigate that? that's something that lots of companies need to. but essentially the west in the past and western friends and partners have been there and once worked together with them and so to speak. if you take all of that off the board, then you don't, you're not even doing balancing anymore. you know, you're just, you're just going all the way and one side. and this is, this is again, this bodes very badly for the future. you know, then we, everyone knows that one is critical, knows that western society is also in need of improvement. but very few people think that russia is the kind of place who really want to live. yeah, and this is what this is about. yeah, i also want to talk about the billionaire that has been called the puppet master of georgian politics. it could have been very helpful and the georgia dream policy, but xena ivan, this really a accumulated his wealth and russia. he's got close ties,

obviously still then now how lodges has influence within georgia politics from the very beginning. he, he indeed has a significant influence on george's government. he in fact also had a public posts, but he was pregnant to serve georgia. and he has left the politics um couple of times and it was the final 3rd come back. okay, so uh, by the end of january, last year, when he declared that he was needed back in politics uh, in georgia in politics about, well, we have been researching and exposing his implants. and in 2021 we have reached, we have concluded that at this point the implants totally guard is so big that we can ultimately say that the state it is captured. and we take a look at the different branches of the government, the cabinet and the ministers that we have in georgia. everyone's who's in the,

in the role of government authority is either connected with team and from that with a business interest, or he or they are coming from case combined. there is something really important as being, as an assets eventually subsets in georgia. on the other hand, what we see that government officials from different years in georgia are loyal to the oligarch end deployed cease and the state are coming from there are pretty much aligned to what only kirk and whose interests do need. yeah, homes. just staying on this for a moment, i think 3 of the last 4 prime ministers are being full of manages of his company. so, do you think that he really is a puppet mazda, pulling the strings behind the scenes here, and what is his in goal? i think the best way to describe him at this point is like a the mac best of the conferences. he, he's of exclusive man. he is actually not very active day to day. uh well the

pull some strings. he then offers that. so the things kind of fall by the wayside, so to speak. and i think of me and he's a man who's trapped in a maze of his of his own making, so to speak. and who is i'm sure about his own future habits. ask them better and resentful and eyelashes out, and in many ways that i think is someone who has run out of ideas and has run out of people. and now thinks that he needs to go after people that could actually oppose the challenge, which is my next best. so to speak is the lines the right comparison here. okay, does she i want to get on to the you've been to ship? uh, you mentioned this before, obviously an overwhelming a number of georgians wants to join the european union. this new little definitely

impacts. that was what i mean. it feels like at this point in time, the protesters processing just as much about the possibility that they might not be able to join the a u. s. a. our about the lord itself. what would that be fair to say? yes, exactly. to do that, i want to describe the situation just as you said, people are fairly concerned that this law is a direct friends to georgia. 0 can weigh in all the progress that we have made throughout the years. uh, for uh, 30 years georgia has been so slowly and step by step, trying to get closer to the western institutions like you and nato. and during the past few years, we made a significant progress. like having an association agreement with the you a piece of free regime and also last year attaining the candidates, the status. so we are the critical stage of, uh, getting to the next stage, which is the um, session negotiations set aside and talk to you. and um, as far as i know,

um we would have the, the, our ass, sorry about whether we are getting to the next stage or not at the end of the year . so these come with a temporary, critical junction of a time when every step of the government, every, every law that they make and adopt. we'll definitely influenced a you work in progress and you can wait. and especially with this legislation that is directly attaching the west uh demonizing them and, and trying to register the west as an enemy in public mind and public consciousness . because that's, that's what they do. i think a lot of a lot of protest members have but tried to that somehow i view with the, with the georgia dream, any foreigners, that at least so we should have a differentiation between russia and the west. our friends are partners, but the main thing we say that will know this is all about $40.00 in every point in

power. no matter who they are. he's danger to to store the sides of you. yeah, this election is coming off and i think 5 months time and in october, do you think that this is short? so as a kid have on from the government does is just going to push people away from voting for them and, and to will position policies as well. um with this slow um um in the coming elections uh government is trying to well suppressed uh, critical voices. this is something that is critical to understand about uh current developments and events in georgia. so therefore, um the, this is prerequisite for something really uh, something that requires a lot of attention from the west uh election to go for this election saying this full to be free. and for this is going to be really important in this country because again, you're a piece, a journalist therapy in the future is the stake at this point. this is also appeals

by the, by the people on the streets and therefore, uh uh, this elections are core uh to be. uh, so you tend to be health of friends. her a little bit slow is not helping this. people are right, switch to try to defend it. yeah. and so i know you've observed every judge in election since 1999. you've been uh, obviously keeping a very close eye on the politics in georgia for the last 25 years. can you give us a sense of what you think is going to happen over the next 5 months and, and through that election period? yeah, so, i mean, i would say typically elections in georgia, there are not a level playing field. they're already kind of a model playing field, and this one, this law will tilted further. it'll get even more difficult for opposition parties for people who have different views to actually have an impact. but everything else that goes on is also thing. one thing that's really important to mention to people

that look at this from the outside, they might think, well, if the government selected why, why shouldn't they be kind of legitimate and doing now? they were elected, they the rather the one that lives selection of the prominence of taking georgia towards the you and now they take it exactly in the opposite direction. so that's important to understand. it doesn't worry is that the elections are going to be neither free nor fair. and this is um, this is what also drives if you see very angry scenes from the streets. and i wonder why aren't people just being peaceful? i'm just waiting for october. that's why because they feel that this is taking the long term future, but it may also take any sensible charts away from them. but here in the near term is does she just on that point to me as hounds was saying that it doesn't feel like these elections could be? i the free no fear. so what is going to happen to the hundreds of thousands of people that we have seen out on the street? so they going to continue protesting this?

oh, well, definitely uh no matter how the game of the law is, they accepted it. they were a to be told where they take it back and cancel this doesn't matter anymore. as i do think that the main i added to the main perception within the context of movement is that this is not at all the law anymore. but this, this is about the regime, the russian regime and the production of the reason that is trying to direct towards your way for me to see what the impact. so i do think that the people that are on this free today before already months and working tyrus tirelessly to voice their opinions, there's a little bit of can they're going to go to the elections as well. i do think that so i would agree with the cost that's uh, the selections are not going to be different if they are not going to be free and fair is as nice works with me about it's um, i'm sure at the same time it's a lot of people show up if we have a record to turn out in the history of cogent collections, which is highly of the model. because we could do that. the government would have

a very hard time to somehow try to influence the election results. and i would say that we have a pretty good chance of winning it. yeah, i'm in the direction of the show you've described as low as in the full out from it is a qu, you've, you've said that these elections coming off. i'm not going to be a free nor fear. so just how worried you hands for the future of georgia. the future is already here. that's the challenge. and what's really important to understand for people this future may be coming near you if you're in a democracy right now, because this is part of an author retiring way than the kind of author carring table that's been rolling out in various places in that it's not just about georgia, this is part of a broader bible. if you can, if you think that society should be broadly open, now this then, then this matters to you. thank you so much for all of that. we really do

a pretty set your time in your inside ski development. actually, thank you so much for joining us here on the inside story and thank you to for watching. you can see the program again any time by visiting a web site that's i'll just say we're adult, calm and full for the discussion goes, well facebook page, that's facebook dot com forward slash a j inside story. you can also join the conversation on x. a handle is at a inside story. somebody told me, craig and the whole team here, vice a news . a pod is an inconvenience. as the oil see suffered casualties. we have not suffered to say, tyler, to use. thank goodness we did have injuries from a missile strike on a guest house, thought provoking on to who that you say, no double standards to all of us. any anyone in particular i said to facing

realities. government seems here to whittle down democracy. it's because it's troubling. for you, it's very, very painful here. the story on talk to how does era the reaching of mine's, the tragedy for me, of a democratic south africa, or it's how quickly we sort of adopted the very told re global knowns, the intertwining of money and politics campaigner andrew fine state and photographer shock you do on, on active is on the crisis and gone. so what is happening today is happening on our

watch. the news from now they will be people asking, how did you let it happen? studio will be on scripted part one on, on disease. the hello. this is alta 0 and are you navigate or with a check on your world headlines, the is really middle. teresa has 5 soldiers have been killed and a so called friendly fire incident. and giovanni a but how my says it carried out the attack, killing 12 soldiers in a, quote, significant and complex operation. in january, israel declared it had dismantled thomas battalions in giovanni. um started about as soon as more from dayton but off mainly the bottles are raging in the heart of devalue refuge account where we see different video is released by the video.